Fast Road Tuition
Discussion
I was wondering if any AD drivers could give me advice on next steps.
My fun car is a '89 911. Previously I've had Lotus.
Had a wonderful drive on Monday in the Sunshine. York up to Middleton in Teesdale. Around 200 miles and the majority in 2nd or 3rd gear. Fabulous.
I did get caught out a couple of times and I definitely had one moment where I was flat through a section and on exit could feel the car lifting.
I completed IAM around 4 years ago. ROPSA the following year. Sadly I fell out of love with the clubs for various reasons and now only maintain a contribution to my local group and go along to the odd talk.
They would be my first call but I don't think they will be able to help. Plodding round the same local roads in a style that allows your passengers to sleep in comfort is not really what I'm after.
Prior to the ROSPA I did go on one of the ADUK days and also went out with a HPC member from Leeds. That was more in line with what I'm thinking of. Looking at the HPC I don't think I'm at the standard to start being so long away from when I last did any proper training. I do go along to IAM every 6 months or so for a 'check drive' but tbh i've not found it massive amount of use.
I've done track days. Did about 8 last year and maybe 20 total. Fun but doesn't really prepare you for the many scenarios you can face on the road.
Any suggestions on where to go for some training?
Need more of this in my life
My fun car is a '89 911. Previously I've had Lotus.
Had a wonderful drive on Monday in the Sunshine. York up to Middleton in Teesdale. Around 200 miles and the majority in 2nd or 3rd gear. Fabulous.
I did get caught out a couple of times and I definitely had one moment where I was flat through a section and on exit could feel the car lifting.
I completed IAM around 4 years ago. ROPSA the following year. Sadly I fell out of love with the clubs for various reasons and now only maintain a contribution to my local group and go along to the odd talk.
They would be my first call but I don't think they will be able to help. Plodding round the same local roads in a style that allows your passengers to sleep in comfort is not really what I'm after.
Prior to the ROSPA I did go on one of the ADUK days and also went out with a HPC member from Leeds. That was more in line with what I'm thinking of. Looking at the HPC I don't think I'm at the standard to start being so long away from when I last did any proper training. I do go along to IAM every 6 months or so for a 'check drive' but tbh i've not found it massive amount of use.
I've done track days. Did about 8 last year and maybe 20 total. Fun but doesn't really prepare you for the many scenarios you can face on the road.
Any suggestions on where to go for some training?
Need more of this in my life
Edited by Rick101 on Thursday 20th July 10:09
I have looked at HPC before and had a couple of HPC drives. It does look worthwhile but I'm not sure it's entirely what I'm looking for.
I always found the other two AD paths very regimented. I was able to perform as requested and get the pass/gold but there were several things I did not agree with, or in fact found to be unsafe. That is the main reason I declined to continue down the observer path. I was simply not willing to sit there telling someone to do something which I thought was wrong.
that's probably my concern looking at HPC. It has a good wide ranging syllabus, but as with any fixed criteria, you need to play it to get the result you want.
I have little interest in any title, badge or accreditation. I simply want to be more confident in the car. I think that will come with learning more about suspension and dynamics, and of course simply getting more miles on the road.
The other option I'm considering is simply going out with friend who is competent suspension and is able to carry a good turn of speed. ~I trust his judgement and will be able to have 2 or 3 drives over 2 or 3 months so will have time to learn, practice, learn etc.
As I understand it, HPC is at a level where you are expected to learn independently. Is that correct?
I always found the other two AD paths very regimented. I was able to perform as requested and get the pass/gold but there were several things I did not agree with, or in fact found to be unsafe. That is the main reason I declined to continue down the observer path. I was simply not willing to sit there telling someone to do something which I thought was wrong.
that's probably my concern looking at HPC. It has a good wide ranging syllabus, but as with any fixed criteria, you need to play it to get the result you want.
I have little interest in any title, badge or accreditation. I simply want to be more confident in the car. I think that will come with learning more about suspension and dynamics, and of course simply getting more miles on the road.
The other option I'm considering is simply going out with friend who is competent suspension and is able to carry a good turn of speed. ~I trust his judgement and will be able to have 2 or 3 drives over 2 or 3 months so will have time to learn, practice, learn etc.
As I understand it, HPC is at a level where you are expected to learn independently. Is that correct?
Edited by Rick101 on Friday 21st July 07:57
IcedKiwi said:
What kind of things did you disagree with?
I think a lot of the value of the professional coaches is the opportunity to discuss different techniques and they have the reasoning behind them to explain or demonstrate what the benefits are. I get the impression that some observers merely tell you to do something because that's what they were told and don't have the full understanding behind it.
I put my belt on after getting in the car. I was told I have to start the car before belting up. The reason given was that car engines are very complicated and there are very high voltages when starting a car so that is the most likely time for it to go up in flames. If I have my belt on I won't be able to get out as quick.I think a lot of the value of the professional coaches is the opportunity to discuss different techniques and they have the reasoning behind them to explain or demonstrate what the benefits are. I get the impression that some observers merely tell you to do something because that's what they were told and don't have the full understanding behind it.
Seriously.
I think they'd have actually s
t if I turned up in my Exige with full harnesses.Edited by Rick101 on Friday 21st July 10:04
That pearl of wisdom was IAM too. I'm glad I did it, I learnt useful stuff but there is a lot of rubbish around the good bits.
Probably why I'm reluctant to do anything too syllabus based.
It's in the book. It must be true, like the bible. It can never be changed. Ever.
Until the next version comes out of course.
Edit - Now booked in with Reg.
Probably why I'm reluctant to do anything too syllabus based.
It's in the book. It must be true, like the bible. It can never be changed. Ever.
Until the next version comes out of course.
Edit - Now booked in with Reg.
Edited by Rick101 on Friday 21st July 10:59
It was a historic thing for me. 20 years ago now but still remember the instructor explaining that was quite possible to get shunted from the rear whilst sat parked at the side of the road so his advice was to belt up as soon as possible.
Seems more likley to happen than the fireball above.
Seems more likley to happen than the fireball above.
All this just reinforces why I'm not looking to 'pass'. It seems more about massaging ego's than actually just trying to be a skilled driver.
I'm actually a bit nervous about my session with Reg. Either we'll get on really well or we'll have a disagreement early on, hopefully it's the former.
I'm actually a bit nervous about my session with Reg. Either we'll get on really well or we'll have a disagreement early on, hopefully it's the former.
I always wonder if it's (BGOL) acceptable in one scenario, why is it unacceptable in another?
Surely it's safe, or it isn't.
I feel it's dumbing down. I think there is much more to braking. Vehicle balance, brake bias, geometry/suspension and it's affect on mechanical grip can all be discussed. Not to mention tyre pressures, compounds, road surface, weather etc. All are a factor in braking. I appreciate not everyone want's to go to this level but it saddens me that many observers are unwilling or simple unable to.
Surely it's safe, or it isn't.
I feel it's dumbing down. I think there is much more to braking. Vehicle balance, brake bias, geometry/suspension and it's affect on mechanical grip can all be discussed. Not to mention tyre pressures, compounds, road surface, weather etc. All are a factor in braking. I appreciate not everyone want's to go to this level but it saddens me that many observers are unwilling or simple unable to.
Well, I do like to bring something new 
Just been out for a little drive, popped up to Scotland
Minor roads on the way up, Primary routes on the way back as I was knick knacked.
Been watching one of RL's Youtube vids each day as a bit of a reminder. Focused on steering today. Couple of occasions I found PP steering to be closer to yank or death. It's certainly good for roundabouts but I've to do more experimenting to find the benefit on more corners.
I understand that you can 'add more' steering' but I find the time it takes to do so negates any benefit. I'm also conscious that you're only gripping the wheel with one hand. That's not so much of a concern but a knock on from that is having to grip it tighter and put all drive through that hand. Any delicate feedback coming back is also having to come back through that single handed deathgrip. I find when I rotational steer I can keep a fairly light touch and rarely have to lose a hand due to particularly tight corners.
Lots to think about. Looking forward to my session.
Just been out for a little drive, popped up to Scotland
Minor roads on the way up, Primary routes on the way back as I was knick knacked.
Been watching one of RL's Youtube vids each day as a bit of a reminder. Focused on steering today. Couple of occasions I found PP steering to be closer to yank or death. It's certainly good for roundabouts but I've to do more experimenting to find the benefit on more corners.
I understand that you can 'add more' steering' but I find the time it takes to do so negates any benefit. I'm also conscious that you're only gripping the wheel with one hand. That's not so much of a concern but a knock on from that is having to grip it tighter and put all drive through that hand. Any delicate feedback coming back is also having to come back through that single handed deathgrip. I find when I rotational steer I can keep a fairly light touch and rarely have to lose a hand due to particularly tight corners.
Lots to think about. Looking forward to my session.
ScoobyChris said:
I've now settled on a hybrid technique that works for me. I hold the wheel at 9 and 3 and used fixed input steering for anything requiring up to around 120 degrees of lock and then if I need anymore I can transition into PP. Most of the time the division of technique is that slow, tight turns and manoeuvring PP is used and faster bends where feedback is more useful and steering can be wound on and off smoothly, accurately and easily, I use fixed grip.
To be honest that's very similar to what I do._Neal_ said:
PPS - Rick101 - when you say you got "caught out" in your original post, what do you mean?
I felt I was not fully in control of the vehicle. If it was wet, or I hit a bump, or a suicidal sheep has decided to make a run for it, I had nothing spare.I tend to drive at around 80% capacity, occasionally push to 90% but am always happy I can stop/avoid etc. That occasion there was nothing spare.
With regard to steering. I've been using the Volvo this week for the 3 mile commute as it's been pissing down.
I hadn't realised how much I do use PP when doing a 'normal' drive. Not sure if that continues out of town, but certainly for low speed local stuff, PP is very good.
I think accuracy has something to do with it too.I think you can steer more accurately with two hands.
Hmm,
This is getting a bit confusing.
For clarity, on a fast drive I prefer rotational steering and find two hands permanently on the wheel allows you to be more accurate and get more feedback.
PP steering requires only one hand with any useful grip or drive on the wheel. The non active hand is sliding either up or down to keep opposite to the active hand.
Whilst I use PP for slow drives in built up areas I have found it not as good, by a long way, as rotational for fast drive.
Edit - I'll add I use a CG lock. I've previously had harnesses but they're a pain for the road so now just use the CG lock, it's a good compromise.
I am not a fast driver and I find myself wrenching at the wheel trying to hang on through corners. Using the CG helps with that. The thought of going from two hands to one to use PP whilst cornering as speed without any form of additional restraint is quite mind boggling for me.
Maybe I'm just not that good and havn't got the right technique. I'm looking forward to finding out.
This is getting a bit confusing.
For clarity, on a fast drive I prefer rotational steering and find two hands permanently on the wheel allows you to be more accurate and get more feedback.
PP steering requires only one hand with any useful grip or drive on the wheel. The non active hand is sliding either up or down to keep opposite to the active hand.
Whilst I use PP for slow drives in built up areas I have found it not as good, by a long way, as rotational for fast drive.
Edit - I'll add I use a CG lock. I've previously had harnesses but they're a pain for the road so now just use the CG lock, it's a good compromise.
I am not a fast driver and I find myself wrenching at the wheel trying to hang on through corners. Using the CG helps with that. The thought of going from two hands to one to use PP whilst cornering as speed without any form of additional restraint is quite mind boggling for me.
Maybe I'm just not that good and havn't got the right technique. I'm looking forward to finding out.
Edited by Rick101 on Friday 11th August 18:07
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