Right of way query

[RobM77]

Yesterday I had a minor accident, my first for 15 years and my second in 23 years of driving. I notified the police and my insurance company and sent dashcam footage to the latter. I thought it was fairly clear cut, but my insurance company have deemed me at fault. Can I ask for opinions please?

I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.

Who was at fault? The insurance company are claiming it was 100% my fault because the other car was in front of me when we both approached the roundabout. I didn't think that mattered if you pulled up alongside each other at the give way line? I won't contest their decision because, other than it being impertinent of me to do so, it's just a scratch and I daren't affect my full no claims bonus. I'd like to know though so this doesn't happen again. Thanks

[RobM77]

TooMany2cvs said:

RobM77 said:

I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.

So the car to your left didn't take the exit you thought he would, but you continued to move left into the lane he was in, even though you knew he was there. Traffic was so heavy that you were stationary - but this other car buggered off into the distance after diving through to spear you.

Let's see the dashcam video...

If I am at fault then I'm not going to post incriminating evidence on the internet! The description above is very accurate and came directly from watching the video. Equally, I'm not going to post a video of someone else driving without their permission. I'm also not a dashcam warrior and have no wish for the video to end up on someone's You Tube compilation somewhere. You'll have to just take my word for it.

I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).

The reason I assumed he was at fault was because he came from behind and rammed me whilst I was almost stationary. Speeding off into the distance didn't help his cause either!

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:00

[RobM77]

Toltec said:

RobM77 said:

If I am at fault then I'm not going to post incriminating evidence on the internet! The description above is very accurate and came directly from watching the video. Equally, I'm not going to post a video of someone else driving without their permission. I'm also not a dashcam warrior and have no wish for the video to end up on someone's You Tube compilation somewhere. You'll have to just take my word for it.

I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).

Technically you were the one changing lanes so that is probably why you are seen as at fault. Was it a double lane exit? How could the other driver squeeze past the inside and speed off if there was queuing traffic?

Thanks. Yes, I did the usual switch from RH lane to LH lane just after I passed the previous exit. I made my decision on the merge (which I treated as a 'zip merge' on who was on front.

It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.

He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:21

[RobM77]

Joeguard1990 said:

On approach to the roundabout, are there any signs or road markings that suggest if you take the left hand lane on approach you can use it to take the 2nd exit?

If not then feel sorry for you OP. Sounds like other driver was in the wrong lane. Surprised insurance would say you're at 100% fault to be honest if you both pulled away at the same time, but I can see their logic in that you moved over left into him when you should have checked your mirror before moving left, even if he did make a mistake.

I'd definitely be contesting it either way on account of other driver not driving the roundabout correctly for a 50/50 claim.

Thank you. Nope, the roundabout has no markings, but it is pretty simple. I did indeed move over on him, but his decision to ram past me came when my car was almost stationary.

I won't be taking this further with the insurer as I don't want it on my record as my fault; I'll just pay for the damage myself and move on. Of course, he may take it further if he has my details, but I doubt he does and I suspect he sees the contact as his fault, even if he does think he's entitle to turn right from the left lane without indicating.

I do a high mileage and try to be as safe as possible, so just wanted opinions in case my understanding of rights of way was wrong. My understanding was that it didn't matter what happened on approach to the roundabout; what matters is what happens on the roundabout - I was ahead, I was in the right lane and I was indicating, whereas he was in the wrong lane, not indicating and behind me. He also deliberately hit my car and drove off without stopping. That's why I thought it was clear cut, but I wanted to hear some opinions from others.

[RobM77]

Toltec said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks. Yes, I did the usual switch from RH lane to LH lane just after I passed the previous exit. I made my decision on the merge (which I treated as a 'zip merge' on who was on front.

It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.

He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:21

Sounds like you would have been better off if you hadn't left them enough room to do a dash up the inside. The problem is that even though they used the wrong lane you had to change lane then they decided to be even more of an idiot because you tried to be polite.

It is like an overtaking situation where the overtakee decides to be a dick and the overtaker gets the blame because they are the ones initiating the manoeuvre.

Good analogy. I'm guessing my lesson learnt is to not leave marginal room - either I should have moved right over to the right earlier on (assuming he was going off on my exit!), or closed the door more decisively.

Alternatively, given his lack of indication, perhaps I could have waited at the give way line to see what he did? The problem with that strategy is that well over half of the people in lane one don't indicate at all, and 99.9999% of them turn left (I've been taking this roundabout daily for 4 years).

[RobM77]

deeen said:

Presumably the cam footage shows his number plate; the police might be interested in him leaving the scene of an accident without stopping. His fault for using the wrong lane to enter the roundabout, unless signed as acceptable, IMHO.

I notified the police and gave them the details. I'd hope they'd be interested in someone playing bumper cars too. I've saved ten minutes of footage before and five minutes after the incident to prove there was no communication or road rage between us.

[RobM77]

cmaguire said:

On a 'dead end' roundabout (that's my terminology to describe a roundabout that could be a T-junction in other circumstances) that has a two-lane approach, anybody that thinks the left lane is appropriate for turning right is a pillock. If that is acceptable practice then we can just as easily say the right hand lane is also appropriate for turning left, which it obviously isn't .

According to my insurance company I could do that, provided I approached the roundabout in front of the other car.

Personally I think the insurance company's decision is bonkers, given that I was hit from behind by an undertaking car whilst virtually stationary! I daren't question it though.

[RobM77]

TooMany2cvs said:

RobM77 said:

Personally I think the insurance company's decision is bonkers, given that I was hit from behind by an undertaking car whilst virtually stationary!

Or you changed lane into a car that you admit you knew was there.

We merged. The contact was after that, when I was almost stationary.

Your opinion is valued though, as it's presumably what the insurance company think. Obviously they could see what happened, but he was in the LH land first (cause he started there!).

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 15th November 08:11

[RobM77]

TooMany2cvs said:

Cliftonite said:

OP gets rammed by a car that is in a wrong lane

Two lane roundabout.

The other car is in the LH lane.
The OP is in the RH lane, trying to change into the LH lane to take the single-lane next exit.

Whether the other car should have taken the previous exit or not is academic. They didn't. The OP was aware of their presence, but changed lane anyway. "Almost stationary" is moving.

Without seeing the video, all we can go on is what the OP is telling us, which you can bet is the best available gloss...

The insurers have seen the video.

Yes; I was doing perhaps a quarter of walking speed - about 1mph, crawling straight ahead behind another car having already left the roundabout. When he rammed me he was doing jogging speed (6-7mph?), but then he accelerated after the hit when the way ahead cleared.

[RobM77]

akirk said:

this discussion has been had on here before, once on a roundabout a car is allowed to sit in the left lane and circle the roundabout all day...

if you wish to exit the roundabout by crossing that lane then you need to give way to what is in that lane, how they came onto the roundabout is irrelevant...

read the highway code!

so yes, I would agree with the insurance company - it is a common misunderstanding amongst drivers

I know my Highway Code pretty well. Where does it say that you can use the left lane to turn right?

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/roundabouts.html

Genuine question, and this was the reason for my thread - perhaps I've mis-understood something during driving training or learning the HC.

[RobM77]

TooMany2cvs said:

RobM77 said:

I know my Highway Code pretty well. Where does it say that you can use the left lane to turn right?

http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/roundabouts.html

Even if it said you can't - which it doesn't - then that still doesn't mean you can change lane into their path... Rules 187 and 147 (points ii and iii), remember...? 187 explicitly says watch out for people doing what this guy did, and give them room.

BTW, official Highway Code is at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

Yes, I did give him room. We did a zip merge and I thought that was consistent with rule 187.

[RobM77]

Thank you. In answer to your question, I forced a merge, and given that I was in front, I thought it made the most sense if I stayed in front. I didn't accelerate to achieve this, we both just gently merged onto the exit, slowing as we went. It was only after I was almost stationary behind the queue of cars on the exit road that he changed his mind and barged through to be in front. It was without doubt a separate move and not linked to the merge. I was still moving at a crawl purely because I could see the queue was about to move, so rather than faff about with the handbrake, I selected first on a roll and prepared to drive off. At the moment of impact I was crawling and almost stationary, whereas he was accelerating forwards past me.

[RobM77]

Do bear in mind that we didn't hit as I crossed lanes. That would obviously be my fault!

[RobM77]

akirk said:

Solocle said:

From the sound of the OP, it’s quite possible the other car decided to try and undertake the op, and misjudged things. op, it would really help people here if you uploaded the footage. Not illegal, and we’re interested.

On the illegal point, read the highway code folks. Just because a manoeuvre isn’t illegal doesn’t make you blameless iff it goes ts up. Undertaking isn’t illegal. It still can be taken into account as a cause of an accident. After all, accidents aren’t illegal...

It is not undertaking for the other car to be in its lane and decide to turn left - all the onus is on the OP to ensure that he does his move without a collision - he was the one crossing the other driver's lane... If the OP out accelerates the other driver around the roundabout (which he must to have come on second and be attempting to leave first) then he basically did an overtake which went wrong...

The OP's question was based on was the other driver in the wrong because having been in the left lane he should have turned left - and the B&W answer is no - the other driver is allowed to continue in the left lane to the right-hand turning if they wish... every other part of the various car moves was down to the OP

As I've said several times, the collision happened after the roundabout and after the lane change. I was barely moving at the time as I was sat behind another car.

[RobM77]

cmaguire said:

Surely you must have known coming on here they'd be lining up to grace you with their wisdom whilst sticking the boot in?
You're merely a vehicle to allow them to feel better about themselves.

Very true! What surprises me is that people are just making things up to criticise me. You're right though, this is PH, and whilst many comments have been very helpful (thank you to those posters), that's not always the case. I have benefitted from some comments though, so thanks.

[RobM77]

jimmy the hat said:

This is just mental. If it happened as described and we must believe that it did, in the absence of any other testimony, this is 100% the fault of the person who's squeezed up the inside of a car that was ahead of them and hit it in the process. Regardless of what Rob did before or on the roundabout, if it was possible for the third-party to stop and therefore avoid collision, nothing excuses driving into someone who is essentially in front of you.

Personally, I'd be pushing my insurance company and OB as hard as I could to settle this to my satisfaction and I wouldn't be satisfied with any opinion that it was 100% my fault on the basis the insurance company have described. Sadly, however, without comprehensive footage or incriminating account from the third-party, it'd likely be 50/50 at best.

May I hijack the thread to briefly describe the opposite scenario? Same roundabout (ish), my wife enters in the left-hand lane at the same time as a third-party enters in the right, both take the first exit and third-party drives into the right/hand rear-quarter of my wife's car. I'm expecting 50/50 at worst but I'd like to think we live in a world where on reflection the third-party would accept that they were in the wrong and admit liability.

Cheers, Jim

Thanks for your support. Whilst I'm encouraged by the people here saying it's 100% not my fault, some have said 50/50 and some 100% my fault. For that reason, I don't want to pursue it any further. I've been driving for 23 years (23 years 5 days to be precise!) and have never had a fault claim on my insurance or any points on my licence. I'm proud of that record, especially given that I do 25-35k miles a year and have owned various high performance cars (2-Eleven, 2 Caterhams, Elise as a daily, multiple 6 cyl BMWs etc). For me, the small cost of repair is worth it to keep that clean record with just the doubt surrounding this incident; that for me is better than a chance of getting a definite decision which may mar my record and affect my insurance in future years. The fact that someone could view the footage and think it's my fault has completely removed any faith that I had in the insurance assessment process. I don't trust them at all, so I'm stepping back. I respect this AD community though and have enjoyed reading peoples opinions, as always.

[RobM77]

Pica-Pica said:

We have all got into the wrong lane at roundabouts, for various reasons, so IMHO that does not count for much at all. It is all about what happened at the point of exit. In these circumstances, you either let them through or ensure there is no gap to come through. Ultimately these situations come down to who has the most to lose from a 'coming together'.

Unfortunately I was in the centre of the exit lane, which had left a gap he could get through with a bit of contact and wing mirror bashing...

[RobM77]

Sorry if my explanation lacked clarity. Basically as soon as I saw the guy there I realised that 2 was going to go into 1. At that point I was ahead by half a car length, so to me it seemed logical to continue to exit and see what happened. He dropped back, so I continued to exit. When I'd finished exiting and was crawling up to the queue ahead with the steering wheel straight and clutch down (~1mph), he decided he wasn't happy and barged his way through. The key point there was that at the point it was apparent we were heading for the same place, I was ahead. If I was behind, I'd have yielded. It seemed to me to be a bit bizarre at the point I spotted him to back right off and wait for him to undertake me (I'd worry about slowing so much on a roundabout with other vehicles around), although if it happens again I may just do that so at least I'm in better control of the situation.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 16th November 18:32

[RobM77]

Thank you for the discussion - it's all very helpful

[RobM77]

FlyingFin said:

RobM77 said:

I notified the police and gave them the details. I'd hope they'd be interested in someone playing bumper cars too. I've saved ten minutes of footage before and five minutes after the incident to prove there was no communication or road rage between us.

Did you call the police at the time and report the incident? The other driver could have been under the influence of drink or drugs, and there was more than a suspicion that this may have been the case by him driving off and failing to stop following an accident...

Yes, I phoned the police as soon as I got to work, described what happened and told them that I had dashcam footage if they were interested. They noted everything and I never heard back.