Are brake lights at junctions the new front fog lights?
Discussion
We all know that if you see a vehicle with the front fog lights on in any conditions other than fog, smog, smoke or mist they are an idiot and you should give them more time and space.
The subject of people failing to use their handbrake at traffic lights, junctions and roundabouts has recently returned to the "knob thread"...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
...I had a bit of an epiphany and came to the conclusion that...
"Anyone who fails to use their handbrake are either incapable or inconsiderate".
...but it goes further than that.
I have noticed that people who fail to use their handbrake at junctions, traffic lights, roundabouts and so on also fail at other things.
So with the front fog light ethos in mind I gave them a little more attention than usual today in the name of research.
Case number 1:
I arrived and parked at a discount warehouse tat shop to get some stuff for someone else. Parking directly behind an Audi A4 Avante with its brake lights on while the driver was sat on the phone...
...I returned five minutes later and noticed he had failed to turn his headlights off.
Failed to use his handbrake, failed to turn his lights off.
Case number 2:
Stopped behind a Land Rover Discovery at a red light. Brake lights illuminated.
The driver leaned over or reached down for something and the SUV crept over the line.
Failed to use the handbrake, failed to keep control of the vehicle.
Those two were pretty crap examples of one thing leading to another. I included them primarily to demonstrate it's not always a big deal but does add to the point I'm making.
Case number 3:
At another set of traffic lights behind a Hyundai Tucson with the brake lights on.
We're in the lane to go ahead or turn right but when the left lane turned green...
...the Tucson set off and...
...had to do an emergency stop to avoid the car in front of them.
Failed to use the handbrake, failed basic observation.
Finally...
Case number 4:
Mercedes in the left turn only lane at a roundabout with the brake lights on. No indicators at all.
Almost drove into the back of the Transit pick up before cutting into lane two of the roundabout to take the third exit...
...and cutting back at speed off the roundabout at the second exit.
Failed to use the handbrake, cluster fu
ck failure of lane discipline.
So; there we have it. Are brake lights at junctions, traffic lights and/or roundabout the new front fog light idiot warning?
Yes, beyond a doubt.
Apart from "you have too much time on your hands" what do you think?
The subject of people failing to use their handbrake at traffic lights, junctions and roundabouts has recently returned to the "knob thread"...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
...I had a bit of an epiphany and came to the conclusion that...
"Anyone who fails to use their handbrake are either incapable or inconsiderate".
...but it goes further than that.
I have noticed that people who fail to use their handbrake at junctions, traffic lights, roundabouts and so on also fail at other things.
So with the front fog light ethos in mind I gave them a little more attention than usual today in the name of research.
Case number 1:
I arrived and parked at a discount warehouse tat shop to get some stuff for someone else. Parking directly behind an Audi A4 Avante with its brake lights on while the driver was sat on the phone...
...I returned five minutes later and noticed he had failed to turn his headlights off.
Failed to use his handbrake, failed to turn his lights off.
Case number 2:
Stopped behind a Land Rover Discovery at a red light. Brake lights illuminated.
The driver leaned over or reached down for something and the SUV crept over the line.
Failed to use the handbrake, failed to keep control of the vehicle.
Those two were pretty crap examples of one thing leading to another. I included them primarily to demonstrate it's not always a big deal but does add to the point I'm making.
Case number 3:
At another set of traffic lights behind a Hyundai Tucson with the brake lights on.
We're in the lane to go ahead or turn right but when the left lane turned green...
...the Tucson set off and...
...had to do an emergency stop to avoid the car in front of them.
Failed to use the handbrake, failed basic observation.
Finally...
Case number 4:
Mercedes in the left turn only lane at a roundabout with the brake lights on. No indicators at all.
Almost drove into the back of the Transit pick up before cutting into lane two of the roundabout to take the third exit...
...and cutting back at speed off the roundabout at the second exit.
Failed to use the handbrake, cluster fu
ck failure of lane discipline. So; there we have it. Are brake lights at junctions, traffic lights and/or roundabout the new front fog light idiot warning?
Yes, beyond a doubt.
Apart from "you have too much time on your hands" what do you think?
I went back into the store and told customer serviced the Audi owner had left his lights on. They made an announcement over the P.A system and he was back out to his car turning them off as I left the car park.
It's more of an observation than irritation. Don't worry I will not waste any more of my or your time looking for further examples. Not that I need to look, it happens all the time.
If you happen to notice it and think...
"Bloody Hell he was right".
...and have a dash camera, take some still and add them to the thread. Also the doddering handbrake users. In the interest of balance it would be nice to see evidence of that.
Good points about the "P" button and automatic "E" brakes.
I drove a Vauxhall with a "P" button and I found for it to work effectively you needed to stamp your foot on the brake and press it before releasing the pedal. Much the same way as you do if the handbrake isn't that good.
I'm glad some of you agree and welcome the debate.
If you happen to notice it and think...
"Bloody Hell he was right".
...and have a dash camera, take some still and add them to the thread. Also the doddering handbrake users. In the interest of balance it would be nice to see evidence of that.
Good points about the "P" button and automatic "E" brakes.
I drove a Vauxhall with a "P" button and I found for it to work effectively you needed to stamp your foot on the brake and press it before releasing the pedal. Much the same way as you do if the handbrake isn't that good.
I'm glad some of you agree and welcome the debate.
I'd like to steer us away from the new LED brake lights that are visible from space as it's about driving technique. Only two of the examples I used had LED brake lights and it was broad daylight so a non-issue.
Since doing a hill start with the handbrake has been taken away from the standing driving test a crop of newer drivers don't know how to do it.
Driving instructors teach pupils how to pass a test not necessarily how to drive.
It's this lack of ability to perform one of the most simple driving personeuvers that leads to the failure to do other equally as simple tasks.
Since doing a hill start with the handbrake has been taken away from the standing driving test a crop of newer drivers don't know how to do it.
Driving instructors teach pupils how to pass a test not necessarily how to drive.
It's this lack of ability to perform one of the most simple driving personeuvers that leads to the failure to do other equally as simple tasks.
"personeuvers" instead of "maneuvers" in case any militant feminist extremists read this thread and are offended.
This is where in the knob thread I suggested the brake lights turn off automatically after say five or six seconds if the speed sensor remains at zero. Pedal pressed or not (auto-stop).
Manufacturers are intent on making cars that do most of the driving for us (to make us used to the idea of full automation) why not a simple timer to save others hassle?
Manufacturers are intent on making cars that do most of the driving for us (to make us used to the idea of full automation) why not a simple timer to save others hassle?
To reiterate again. I have not mentioned the brightness of brake lights in this thread but a lack of driver ability.
See someone who cannot operate a hand brake and watch as they do something else just as poor.
As for the automated brake light being problematic the reapplication of the brake would reset the timer. So when you see the vehicle behind you can let them know you're there. Unless your vehicle is completely invisible (or bright yellow) this should not be an issue.
See someone who cannot operate a hand brake and watch as they do something else just as poor.
As for the automated brake light being problematic the reapplication of the brake would reset the timer. So when you see the vehicle behind you can let them know you're there. Unless your vehicle is completely invisible (or bright yellow) this should not be an issue.
RobM77 said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Thing is, brake lights were there to warn motorists behind that you are slowing down. Nobody needs to be warned of anything once you're stationary in a queue. The last car could maybe be helpful and apply the brakes until a car arrived behind, I can see the logic there but it's not something I'd do. If there's a hazard then you have hazard warning lights.
I frequently hold the brake lights on until the car behind has stopped - this is especially salient these days when the ubiquity of ABS seems to have meant most people brake very late and increase the brake pressure force as they brake. I think this is a good technique for safety. Once they've stopped behind me though, I release the brake pedal, because I think it's rude to shine a bright light in someone's eyes.1/ They should see you but if not the brake lights help.
2/ If they are completely inept and as pointed out before the handbrake may not be enough in a rear end collision so being ready for that possible eventuality by having your foot near the brake pedal can't be a bad thing.
I enjoy the tangents but the whole idea is a lot more simple.
Failure leading to other failings.
I chose the words "fail", "failure" and "failings" very deliberately because the hill (or any kind of start for that matter) with the handbrake was part of the driving test when I passed mine.
Failure to do a basic start with the handbrake to demonstrate simple control of the vehicle during the test would be five critical error points on your assessment. As you are only allowed fifteen before you fail the driving test drivers who fail to do so after passing the test are not *driving to a standard expected of a competent driver*. Personally I find it interesting to see what happens next. If anything.
Back to my original examples if they were under driving test conditions.
1/ Failure to use the handbrake when parked - 5 error points. Left lights on - none.
2/ 5 points for the handbrake. Another 5 points for jumping the line while the light was still red.
3/ 5 points for the handbrake. Test abandoned for nearly causing a collision. Fail.
4/ 5 points for the handbrake. 5 for cutting across lanes, 1 point for failing to indicate and 5 for excessive speed. Test abandoned. Fail.
We all know that like any education system some driving instructors only teach pupils how to pass the test and not how to drive. I stand by the premise that the day you pass the test is the day you start learning how to drive. While I'm not saying we should drive as if we were taking the test every day the section of the sentence I highlighted with stars is the legal definition of Due Care and Attention.
Just take a moment to honestly ask yourself...
"If I did that during a driving test would I pass?"
Back off topic. Traffic jams are fair game for moron spotting. If I'm sat for more than a few minutes going nowhere with other vehicles around me I turn my engine off. If it's cold I'll get out and put a jacket on rather than sit with the engine running and heaters on as you have no idea when you'll be on the move and near a petrol station again. People having to abandon vehicles on motorways because they have run out of fuel whilst sat in traffic add to the overall problem. I'm lucky to have never been stuck that long but I was stuck on the A1(M) due to a collision in snow for six hours and several ran out.
Failure leading to other failings.
I chose the words "fail", "failure" and "failings" very deliberately because the hill (or any kind of start for that matter) with the handbrake was part of the driving test when I passed mine.
Failure to do a basic start with the handbrake to demonstrate simple control of the vehicle during the test would be five critical error points on your assessment. As you are only allowed fifteen before you fail the driving test drivers who fail to do so after passing the test are not *driving to a standard expected of a competent driver*. Personally I find it interesting to see what happens next. If anything.
Back to my original examples if they were under driving test conditions.
1/ Failure to use the handbrake when parked - 5 error points. Left lights on - none.
2/ 5 points for the handbrake. Another 5 points for jumping the line while the light was still red.
3/ 5 points for the handbrake. Test abandoned for nearly causing a collision. Fail.
4/ 5 points for the handbrake. 5 for cutting across lanes, 1 point for failing to indicate and 5 for excessive speed. Test abandoned. Fail.
We all know that like any education system some driving instructors only teach pupils how to pass the test and not how to drive. I stand by the premise that the day you pass the test is the day you start learning how to drive. While I'm not saying we should drive as if we were taking the test every day the section of the sentence I highlighted with stars is the legal definition of Due Care and Attention.
Just take a moment to honestly ask yourself...
"If I did that during a driving test would I pass?"
Back off topic. Traffic jams are fair game for moron spotting. If I'm sat for more than a few minutes going nowhere with other vehicles around me I turn my engine off. If it's cold I'll get out and put a jacket on rather than sit with the engine running and heaters on as you have no idea when you'll be on the move and near a petrol station again. People having to abandon vehicles on motorways because they have run out of fuel whilst sat in traffic add to the overall problem. I'm lucky to have never been stuck that long but I was stuck on the A1(M) due to a collision in snow for six hours and several ran out.
dvenman said:
jamei303 said:
What annoys me is headlights of oncoming vehicles when I'm a pedestrian walking towards them on their nearside pavement.
I'd love it if all drivers switched their headlights off in street-lit areas, as there is no legal requirement to use them, only sidelights. Not going to happen though is it, so I just look away. No point getting angry about it.
I want as much information out of the environment as possible - which means headlights, and if suitable, main beams.I'd love it if all drivers switched their headlights off in street-lit areas, as there is no legal requirement to use them, only sidelights. Not going to happen though is it, so I just look away. No point getting angry about it.
Modern HiD headlights can look like high beams if there is any condensation or muck (due to tailgating) on the outer covers; or if they are after market bulbs that either do not fit properly or have been fitted to a car that predates HiD bulbs. That is another example of laziness as everyone should make sure their lights and windows are clear of any condensation or frost before going on to any public road.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptons...
Drivers aids have evolved from justifiable and applaudable safety features well beyond the point of any necessity. Initially this was due to manufacturers wanting to Top Trump their competition. Volvo had three traction control settings for example; dry, wet and icy conditions. The following year Mercedes had six traction control settings and eventually the BMW M5 had getting on for a hundred different combinations of settings when all anyone with a pulse and IQ higher than a house brink needed was a simple on/off switch at most.
The last five to ten years drivers aids have been aimed at full autonomy. After all we live in a society where people swipe left or right instead of having a conversation those of us who enjoy and appreciate the skill of driving are an endangered species.
More drivers aids over the years has been a major factor in the pandemic decline in driving standards.
The auto-stop brake instead going to all the effort of taking a car out of gear and using a lever to hold it in place is the most obvious part of that iceberg. It's going to get to a point where traffic lights will not need the amber phase any more as drivers will not need the amber time to get the car in gear and prepare to go any more.
Also a consumerist attitude (note this post is Black Friday) hasn't helped the art of driving or the environment. In a world of limited resources why buy an old car you need to skill to drive when you can have a Instanew one that does most of it for you.
Sorry, going way off tangent there.
DoubleD said:
Tony33 said:
ersonally I find it far more frustrating when lights change and those people who go through an incredibly slow process of selecting gear, releasing the handbrake and finally pulling away, by which time the lights have changed before I can get through. Meanwhile those holding their autos on the brake have long gone down the road!
Yep thisShame some people can't eh?
DoubleD said:
Liquid Knight said:
DoubleD said:
Tony33 said:
ersonally I find it far more frustrating when lights change and those people who go through an incredibly slow process of selecting gear, releasing the handbrake and finally pulling away, by which time the lights have changed before I can get through. Meanwhile those holding their autos on the brake have long gone down the road!
Yep thisShame some people can't eh?
Traffic could still be in the road, it could be a box junction, there could be an emergency service vehicle on the way that person in front spotted but the one behind didn't because they were so distracted trying to anticipate the lights...etc....etc...
What's the rush?
Why the hurry?
There's a vehicle in front of you. You are going ten or fifteen feet less than they are.
I do find it amusing when someone takes off from a set of lights like they have used launch control only to have to stop a few yards later.
As I already pointed out the amber phase of traffic lights is to get the car either ready to stop or ready to go.
I have seen a lot of modern cars with brake lights on jump the line at amber. They're in such a hurry to get nowhere they can't even wait for the legal time to go.
I appreciate your baiting comments and you've done a good job summing up exactly what is wrong with both modern cars and "entitled" drivers in one.
Inigo Montoya said:
We're talking about stationery cars. In other words, cars going nowhere.
Brake lights are bright for safety reasons. Perhaps the manufacturers aren't so dim after all, eh?
If they are going nowhere why does the brake need to remain applied? Brake lights are bright for safety reasons. Perhaps the manufacturers aren't so dim after all, eh?
Maybe it's the owners who are dim.
DoubleD said:
Liquid Knight said:
If they are going nowhere why does the brake need to remain applied?
Maybe it's the owners who are dim.
I guess they would start going somewhere if they took their foot off the brake. Maybe it's the owners who are dim.
How about a cable operated back up braking system so the hydraulic bakes can be depressurised? Operated by hand to reduce the risk cramp or fatigue in the lower leg and foot as well.
Nah that would be a selfish idea making people do things with their hand when they can barely operate a vehicle as it is.
Catatafish said:
I saw some intense brake lights today whilst queuing but I couldn't bring myself to give a st.
I tried very hard to set my face and retinas on fire under the deluge of red photons. Then I remembered that out of all the EM spectrum red photons are perhaps the lamest. Perhaps some kind of strong pharmaceuticals are necessary to get the proper 'futile aggro' effect.
Jesus. If you are afflicted with this tragic mental illness and unfortunately eye/brain/neck paralysed such that you can't control where you look, I'd rather you simply gave up driving. Being able to look in different directions is fundamental to the operation of vehicles.
Also FFS watch out for those animated Audi indicators! if you're not careful you'll get yourself hypnotised into a dribbling moron.
So page eight and some people still don't understand...t.I tried very hard to set my face and retinas on fire under the deluge of red photons. Then I remembered that out of all the EM spectrum red photons are perhaps the lamest. Perhaps some kind of strong pharmaceuticals are necessary to get the proper 'futile aggro' effect.
Jesus. If you are afflicted with this tragic mental illness and unfortunately eye/brain/neck paralysed such that you can't control where you look, I'd rather you simply gave up driving. Being able to look in different directions is fundamental to the operation of vehicles.
Also FFS watch out for those animated Audi indicators! if you're not careful you'll get yourself hypnotised into a dribbling moron.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT BRAKE LIGHTS
...it's about failing to control the vehicle.
The only reason the brake lights are mentioned is because if they're on brake pedal is being pressed.
I made the observation that some who failed to use the handbrake also failed to do other things. From something as simple as forgetting to turn their headlights off to almost colliding with the vehicle in front of them.
DoubleD said:
Why would you care how someone holds a car still at a traffic light?
I don't care it's purely an observation. Failure to do one of the most simple maneuvers while driving tends to lead to other failings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf23oAvTnGk
@2:40
jamei303 said:
DoubleD said:
99% of cars just pull away with no problems
I bet 99% of drivers when asked would say the only reason they use the handbrake at traffic lights is to give their foot a rest. Only a tiny minority would say it was just in case they got hit from behind and their foot slipped.That comes back to my "Top Trumps" comment before about drivers aids in general.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
Should have know it was the lazy ass'd Americans fault.
Good points guys. Drivers aids are for people who want to get from A to B with the least enthusiasm possible. Driving enthusiasts will tend to reject this premise.
It's the nature of the world we live in. Tomato, tom-art-oh. Drivers car, drivers aids. We're all using the same tarmac, I'll make a concerted effort to be less critical.
Good points guys. Drivers aids are for people who want to get from A to B with the least enthusiasm possible. Driving enthusiasts will tend to reject this premise.
It's the nature of the world we live in. Tomato, tom-art-oh. Drivers car, drivers aids. We're all using the same tarmac, I'll make a concerted effort to be less critical.
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