Thread Crush - Overtake

[julian64]

Been on PH for a while. I've read all the recurring threads. One recurring theme is the overtaking threads.

It usually starts with someone posting a video of an overtake. They get shot down in flames as a dangerous driver by the more pious of PH posters, or IAM, or the sleeping police here.

Ultimately after a number of pages it ends with two groups across a divide throwing insults at each other.
On the one side are the :

SPEEDERS

'its okay to break the law while in the middle of an overtake'
'the mumsnet on here probably never overtake'

and on the other side

MUMSNET

'the speeders are hooligans who give all us drivers a bad name'
'its perfectly possible to legally overtake and we do it all the time'

The owners of this website must love these threads because any thread which generates polarity, generates posts. But after years on this website it would be nice to crush one type of thread such that anyone else who posts this type of thread could be referred to a thread like this where they weren't allowed to post duplicates of what has gone on before but had to further the thread with a game of one-upmanship.

How would this work? Well the custard test works for some types of threads so lets see if it'll work here.

We need someone who agrees with the MUMSNET sentiments to post dashcam footage of them overtaking a police car. If mumsnet is right then this should be possible, completely legally, without getting pulled over.

Should someone manage to do this then a similar challenge could be thought of and leveled at the speeders? Although to be honest if a large quantity of dashcam footage turned up showing multiple overtakes of police cars then I would be convinced that is 'thread crush'.

This would continue until the Overtake discussions are eventually decided and therefore crushed, never to appear as anything other than a sticky again

[julian64]

Yep

I think the thread has been crushed by PISTONHEADs deciding to move it to advanced driving

Obviously the idea of thread crushing is not one that goes down well with a team trying to get the thread count up rather than down.
Gotta think they have a sense of humour though. I did suspect they were going to close the thread, but I guess this works just as well

Shame as I had a few ideas for other endlessly recurrent threads which could be crushed.

I suspect unless the unicorn dashcam video actually turns up showing an overtake of a police car, we have stalled at the first hurdle.

Cheers All .

[julian64]

Pica-Pica said:

Fastdruid said:

julian64 said:

We need someone who agrees with the MUMSNET sentiments to post dashcam footage of them overtaking a police car. If mumsnet is right then this should be possible, completely legally, without getting pulled over.

I've done this. NSL/60 mph limit, police car and a car in front, both doing ~40mph. Double overtook them. Didn't break the speed limit. Didn't get stopped.

No dashcam footage though, sorry.

The same. I have certainly overtaken police cars with no issue. I assume that police are advised to drive at say 65mph on motorways, except when on a chase, or specifically controlling traffic speed.
No dashcam either, I prefer to avoid accidents rather than film them.

You two give me hope, get your dashcams working !!!

[julian64]

Tyre Tread said:

otolith said:

Overtaking on a single carriageway should never be attempted by anyone less than an IAM Road Captain showing the appropriate grille badges.

That's what I thought when I read the OP's post. You just summed it up better that I could have. Thank you

Not sure thats accurate. This thread started in general gassing and was moved here by the MODs. I have never posted in advanced driving, as I'm not very ......well..........advanced.

it was an attempt to settle a thread, not declare my ability.

I like to think the mods were worried about the possible threat to their income from crushing a popular type of thread

[julian64]

Tyre Tread said:

Julian64 I owe you an apology. It was M4cruiser I quoted earlier who made it sound like only the privileged should be able to overtake.

No problem. I had to re-read my post as I worried I had unintentionally made it sound that way.

[julian64]

M4cruiser said:

No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.

I have a question for you M4.

In your opinion would you feel safer sitting in the passenger seat with someone about to do an overtake
if:

They have just passed their police driver training but were only a few years of having a driving licence

or

They passed their training ten years ago but had an over ten year driving licence and a clean driving record


I only ask because some of your posts are a little fringe, but understanding why you post the way you do probably has a lot to do with what type of learner you are, and more importantly what type of learning you value.

Your posts seem to give no weight to socratic or heuristic learning, and everything to didatic. Its a very military, and ordered and I would be fascinated in your background.

[julian64]

Dr Jekyll said:

Perfectly true, but then the same applied when I've driven with John Lyon and a few other police trained instructors.
It wasn't the way a police trainee using all exemptions would be expected to drive, but it certainly wasn't sticking rigidly to NSL either.
I think some IAM bike groups in particular did have something of a 'speed wall', but tended to treat it as a target. Spending a lot of time at say 90, but no faster. While JL said specifically that he treated non trunk road NSLs as derestricted and occasionally hit 90, very occasionally three figures. That was in a car not a bike, but I was happy with the speed he drove me and he was OK with the somewhat lower speed at which I drove him . While I parted company with an IAM bike group because I wasn't happy with the speed they went round corners, which I suspected was connected with the way every meeting seem to include a reference to whichever member had suffered a single vehicle cornering accident that month.

I ditched any sort of club or drive meeting nearly ten years ago due to the possibility of a joint venture.

[julian64]

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Likely to be taken from a book fifty years ago when very fast cars met very slow cars out on the open road with completely different agenda. Making progress in a fast car with slow cars around you could be done smoothly and without fuss.

Today everyone is in a car with fairly matched ability to accelerate and perform within the speed limit. Someones driving ability means nothing if the cars are closely matched. And to add the last nail to the coffin everyone now uses the speed limit as a target, and above the speed limit comes with fairly onerous penalties for those of us who still work.

So overtake now is not relaxed and slow and without fuss. It is opportune, usually requires tailgating to alert, or by surprise on the dawdling driver, and needs a lot of fuss and flourish to make a car perform significantly better than the other within the speed limit.

Its nice to read books about slow and smooth, or hear stories on forum like this about it, but I wouldn't want to sit in a car with someone slow and smooth because they would be vulnerable to every odd, or weird driver on the road who hated their breakfast, or wife and was driving a shopping trolley still capable of a 5 second 0-60.

[julian64]

Armchair_Expert said:

Dr Jekyll said:

I disagree with you there. There are plenty of drivers doing less than the limit on NSL roads, and a big difference between a smooth unobtrusive overtake and a rushed fussy one. Or between a driver who makes smooth progress down a twisty road and one who drives jerkily. Even in a built up area there is a big difference between the driver who makes a passenger feel relaxed and the one who has the passenger reflexively going for a non existent brake pedal.

It isn't about being 'slow', it's about avoiding unnecessary delay without rushing.

I will second that disagreement.

It may be true that speeds are generally higher these days, and in if you take into account the previously comments about how drivers will treat an NSL road, it is entirely feasible to be carrying out overtakes that are well planned, perfectly safe and at an acceptable speed for the circumstances*.

It is true that you will have drivers who can see your intentions and start to react / play up to your overtake. They may read your intentions via your approach speed or positioning, or both. If that happens you just have to re assess the scenario as a whole, because once this happens you have whole other issue to deal with as part of any overtake. Unless you know you have significant power advantage over such drivers this situation would normally result in me dropping back and not even entertaining persevering until we parted company. Even with a power avantage, it is not uncommon for people to "test" by veering across the white lines at the critical moment you start to pass, purely to provoke. This even happens on DC's at the higher margins of acceptable closing speeds.

• With safety and system in mind.

I don't think you really have a power advantage anymore which is kinda my point. An ideal overtake for smooth and fuss free is either a massive power advantage, which has to be more massive the more congested the road is, or a meeting of minds between the two drivers and a cooperative overtake.

The massive power advantage has all but gone in this world, even more so if you are going to restrict yourself to the speed limit.

The cooperative overtake is still a thing, but I tend to be quite cynical regarding this, and certainly while commuting, this is rarely a thing. Out for a drive at the weekend it is more of a thing, or better if you are driving something the car in front approves of.

Its not ideal to be surprising the driver in front with the overtake, But on balance weighing up either asking the psychi of the driver in front or surprising the psychi of the driver in front, I tend to find surprising to be the safer option. I do admit broad brush opinion here.

And I do realize I'm probably an outlier on an AD thread with that opinion.

[julian64]

Pica-Pica said:

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

I did fully expect to see a number of posts where the perfect overtake happened in a very low power car, and in that I think this was a fine example.