Severe understeer help!

[Nic Jones]

Heres the problem, I have a 106, lovely car to drive, lift-off oversteer on demand and very driveable most of the time.

Last week while having a fairly sporting drive I overcooked it into a roundabout in the rain and as I turned the wheel it sailed straight on in a straight line after (very) quickly analysing the situation I realised I couldn't;

a) Brake, would have probably just locked up and continued going in a straight line.

b) Accelerate, see above

c) Do nothing, see above again.

so the only option I decided was;

d) tug the handbrake slide the back and drift it round the corner, luckily for me this worked a treat and the car hung the back end out and went where i wanted it to, applying the power as I went to stop it completely swapping ends.

I know that I should have paid more attention to the conditions as I entered said roundabout, and slowed down accordingly, so have learnt a valuable lesson about arsing about in such conditions.

Normally in such a position the front end hangs on for grim death and I lose the back first which is easy and fun to recover.

Any advice on how t deal with understeer like this again please?

Was pulling the handbrake the correct thing to do? Seemed like the only option at the time...

I also should point out that the road was completely deserted about 1am so I wasn't putting any other motorists at risk.

Any advice appreciated, thanks!

[Nic Jones]

Cheers guy much appreciated.

Luckily I have experience rallying and have been taught how to deal with handbrake turns through training, just never understeer which is odd!

The releasing lock option sounds good, not too sure I like the idea of anchoring up and hoping to lose speed though!

[Nic Jones]

Don said:

Thinking about it. In the case of severe understeer - what would happen if you just stamped on the brakes - given the car is fitted with ABS? I would presume that the system would turn as much as the ABS system was capable of doing... I'd love to try that on a skid pan. I've done the brake-steer-release thing (on a car without ABS)(which works) but only when understeering under braking. Going in hot enough to understeer through sheer speed would the same thing work? Presumably it would just not as well...

No such luxurys as ABS, hell it doesn't even have power steering!

On the outside was big armco type barrier hence I didnt really want to slide off the road!

Handbrake seemed sensible as I have enough experience of the car during a handbrake turn (autotesting etc.) to know/guess what it how it would respond and then steer/accelerate accordingly.

[Nic Jones]

Jungles said:

Nic Jones said: Luckily I have experience rallying and have been taught how to deal with handbrake turns through training, just never understeer which is odd! I was really surprised to read this, since from my understanding, one of the first things you must master when learning to drive competitively on loose surfaces (I assume "rallying" means loose-surface rallying) is how to fight understeer. The hand-brake turn is one of the manifestations of attempting to overcome loss of steering force, and therefore slow turning rate, caused by lack of grip on the front tyres. For overcoming understeer during normal road driving, it's generally best to ease off the throttle and straighten the steering wheel. If that fails (or you think it will), then get on the brakes hard while unwinding the steering wheel; once enough speed has been scrubbed off, then get off the brake and progresively steer to your desired direction. Hand-brake turns and other methods of turning the car works within parameters, but once those have already been exceeded, they won't help you. You were lucky that your speed was not excesssive for a hand-brake turn, and there was enough room for you to attempt the manouevre. >> Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 24th May 05:11 >> Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 24th May 05:12

Sorry what I wrote was wrong,

I learnt about handling handbrake turns through practice on autotests where you never go quick enough to understeer, but have to use the handbrake to slide the back through a box of cones so a 'controlled handbrake turn' (contradiction?) is needed.

I should have pointed out that I co-drive on rallies and have picked up a lot of tips and tricks, ie left foot braking.

Unfortunately in a severe understeer moment I try not to look up from the nav seat, as it tends to end with a bump I've noticed in the past!

Nic

[Nic Jones]

KB_S1 said:

Don't know how your 106 will compare exactly to my car as it sounds like you have a very basic version (no ABS or PAS) so you may have skinny tyres and soft suspension. However I have found that in my car when understeer sets in (only ever in wet greasy conditions) i find it best to use either a gentle throttle release and maintain steering angle or reduce steering angle and maintain throttle. Trying to do both at the same time tends to make things a little jerky. Of course this only applies to r/about exit understeer whereas i think your case was on entry. Luckily i have not yet managed to achieve that, my car tends to prefer steering from the rear.

Yes quite basic, small tyres, admittedly i always use Pirelli P3000's, best I can get to fit.

No PAS, got strong arms now or ABS (I'm quite happy to take my foot off the brake and reapply it when locked up, as may have happened once or twice in the past!).

Only ever understeers in the wet, in the dry the front hangs on for grim death, and the back lets go, which I think is a bit odd, as the suspension is quite soft at the front and quite stiff at the back.

Thanks for the advice guys, another quick question though, I'm quite adept at left foot braking, (too much time practicing/playing on farm tracks ) could that have helped the situation, in an attempt to slide the back round? Or would the front just carry on sliding?

Time to buy a mkI Escort RS1600 I reckon, and just apply the power through the corner

[Nic Jones]

Thought it might be, theres a skid pan near where I live might go and have a look sometime.

Cheers

[Nic Jones]

How on earth is understeer safer than oversteer? At least you've got a fair chance with oversteer if you know how the car behaves when on the limit?
I'd much rather lose the back than the front no matter what the car.

Had a bit of a play in the rain yesterday around the car park at work (after hours obviously), deliberately overcooking it into sharp corners at each end and then left foot braking to see the effect, and i must admit it really brought the back around enough to be able to drive out the corner safely, the main issue is coordination of hands and both feet, braking accelerating and steering together.

Thanks for all your advice guys, I know an instructor at the pan near home sdo may have a word and go for a session sometime.

Regards Nic

[Nic Jones]

thunderbelmont said:

Nic, We have to think like the car designers. They are designing a car for the average numpty to drive. If you regularly have severe understeer, then you have a distict lack of connection between the grey matter, the optical interfaces, and the right foot (ie: you clearly cannot judge your speed in relation to the conditions in which you are driving - please park your car safely, and call a taxi or catch a bus, hand your licence in at the nearest police station, and help keep the insurance premiums lower for the rest of us). If you have mild understeer, and understand the situation, you are obviously "switched on" to the situation, and are most likely open to instruction as per the solution - hence your final comment about wishing to hook up with the instructor at your local skid pan. I would recommend this to anyone, whether they consider their driving one step up from Ernie with is Milk Float, or "know everything" and fly fighters for a living. It's good for the soul, as well as the skillset, and a refresher is always much better than finding that your skills are not that good as you thought when you find the immovable object modifying your pride and joy's aestetics. To get shot of that mild understeer, you need your suspension tweeking. More static camber, and more caster, and the best trick - get shot of the ackerman on the front. It's great for normal road use, slow speed, but it's a pain in the arse at high speed, causing mild understeer. To get shot of oversteer on your rwd car, the pedal on the right goes up (but only do it gently!), as well as down. Rob. former ARDS Instructor (temorarily retired!)

Thanks for the advice, it's very rare that this occurs, and on the occasion in question it was very wet and I admit I simply overcooked going into the roundabout through poor judgement.

I am starting to look into the costs of a session on a skid pan with the instructor I know, who has a lot of experience in this area.

I'm still on a steep learning curve even thoug I've had my licence 2 years now, and admit I do have the odd mad 5 minutes, as I'm sure a lot of people do.

I am willing to learn and further my driving since passing my test i completed the pass plus course, which taught me a great deal about how to drive on the motorway, in lanes, at night etc, something i really believe should be essential.

Thanks for all your advice, I'm not a complete clown behind the wheel I just enjoy driving, and I've still got clean licence!

Regards Nic.

>> Edited by Nic Jones on Monday 29th May 21:58