Too many points to be an Advanced Driver

[markmullen]

I am in two minds about this and wondered if anyone else had any views.

I am an IAM Qualified Observer and have just had my latest Associate refused to be tested for having 9 points on his licence.

In our group we have 2 classroom sessions, at the first of these the Group Training Officer helps the Associates fill in their test paperwork. At this my associate apparently told the training officer his licence had 3 points on it when in actual fact it had 9 (3x SP30), he misunderstood the question and told them how many convictions he had rather than how many points (allegedly ).

He is a good competent driver and didn't need much work at all to get to the IAM test level, of a suggested 10 week syllabus we only took 6 (one of which was my demo drive so really only 5 weeks of him driving). I passed him on to a Senior Observer who did his first check test, he passed with flying colours with only one point to work on (more manual use of the auto box on his Merc ML). The Group Training Officer then did a full mock test with him which again he passed with flying colours meaning he was put in for his IAM test proper.

He turned up for his test yesterday with the IAM Examiner (a serving Police Driving Examiner), the first thing the examiner did was a licence check, found he had 9 points and rang IAM HQ for guidance who said that because he had over 8 points he was ineligible to take the test.

I can see the virtue in keeping the IAM solely for the best drivers and in their eyes that means the ones who drive within the speed limits (a debate for another time).

At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?

Your views would be appreciated

[markmullen]

hardboiledPhil said:

Didn't Prince Michael of Kent keep getting lots of points when he was President of the IAM?

IIRC Thats why the President is now Nigel Mansell not HRH

[markmullen]

ipsg.glf said:

Vaux said:

ipsg.glf said:

Another example of why the IAM is completely irrelevant. They only seek to protect their market share.

That's a little harsh?
And they seek to expand their "market share".

Apparently they now have a scheme whereby people can become a member of the IAM without actually taking an advanced test. It is nothing to do with road safety but everything to do with cross-selling products and services to gullible people.

In fairness you are not a full member of the IAM, that only comes when you have passed your test (or are in the group of people who are exempt from having to take the test, Police Advanced Drivers, Military Driving Examiners etc). This Associate status is intended for people who are in the process of preparing to take their test in order that they receive mailouts and the magazine, rather than as an alternative to full membership.

[markmullen]

vonhosen said:

Keep on bickering, the opposition won't.
I'd have thought looking for common ground is more sensible than differences.

Bloody hell, I've found myself agreeing with VH!

He's right, shouldn't we, as motoring enthusiasts, support a group whose aim is to make the roads safer for motorists? That is why I give my time away for free as an IAM Observer to turn the kind of numpties who get under our wheels and impede our progress into the type of drivers we would like to see more of. If everyone on the roads was an Advanced Driver we'd all be able to get to our destinations quicker and with less stress and drama than we currently do.

[markmullen]

WhoseGeneration said:

Part of my point about the IAM.
I too would want all to be of that standard, which would mean a further mandatory test meaning training by an ADI and a DSA conducted test.
Therefore the end of the IAM as an "observing" and testing organisation.
Would it want to commit "suicide"?

Its pretty much pointless speculation though as current driving tests are far from IAM level, plus there seems to be no move towards regular retests.

The only plans regarding driving tests on the board at the moment seem to be raising test age to 18 and making learners take a minimum number of ADI led driving lessons, something I don't agree with as I took one driving lesson, was taught by my dad at age 8 and passed my DSA test first time with two minors, I would have had to incur much more expense to learn to drive in the proposed way.

I think the current test should be revised to include more Advanced level techniques, I don't propose for example that a 17 year old learner should have to learn limit points or similar higher level stuff, just good observation, forward planning and positioning as opposed to the current trend to teach people meaningless guff about driving "greenly" which although it may possibly assist the environment in a small way does little to contribute to road safety.

[markmullen]

TripleS said:

With regard to steering, some people, as I'm sure you know, get quite anal about the handling of the steering wheel, and this is something I'm quite sensitive about, especially after my encounter with one particular IAM observer. On my first (and with him, only) observed drive he made a great fuss because I didn't hold the steering wheel in a way that he deemed satisfactory -

There has been many many posts about hand position, the IAM has to have a system it can teach to associates, the hand position it uses as part of this is the best for the majority of situations, as such it is the best one to teach as part of a syllabus which has to be reasonably concise.

TripleS said:

despite the fact that I had already been driving and getting pretty good results for 48 years!

If you asked 100 members of the public whether they were a good driver or not I would suggest more than 90 of them would say they are above average. How do you measure your results? By not having accidents? By not amassing penalty points? I have been out with many many (probably thousands) of different drivers through my work, most of them were more or less safe, most didn't have points (according to their driving licences). Did it make them good drivers? No.

If you are unable or unwilling to accept criticism of your driving style, or unable to adapt to a different style and system of driving (which, incidentally is good enough for the police and is indeed based around Roadcraft, The Police Driver's Manual) why bother wasting your £85 and joining the IAM?

TripleS said:

As far as I was concerned he was about the worst possible advert for the IAM, and not the sort of chap I can work with at any price. I can't quite remember his name now - Ian Morris/Riley/Wolseley - or something like that; anyhow I expect Mark M will know him, just in case anybody wishes to know who to steer clear of.

And is it very professional to slag off this chap on a forum he more than likely is not a member of? As such he is unable to put his point of view forward. Remember, he, like all Observers nationwide do, gave his time up for free to try and help you. Our observers (for readers not aware of this saga TripleS joined the IAM through the same local group I passed my test with and am a Qualified Observer for) are a mixture of Qualified Observers, who have passed the IAM Qualified Observer practical and written tests, and Group Observers who have been Observers since before the QO test came into place. We have great success in our group and have only had single figures of failures. Some personalities will not get along together and I suggest this is what happened with you and him.

Edited by markmullen on Sunday 26th August 22:24

[markmullen]

X8 Saggy said:

Hi,

sorry if this is stupid question.
what does IAM stand for?
is this run by the police?
is it only for the police?

thanks in advance?

steve

Not a stupid question at all.

To answer your questions in order:

The IAM is the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

Not run by the police per-se however some of our members are police officers and police officers with the Police Advanced Driver qualification are eligible for membership without having to sit the test. Also our examiners are usually serving Police Driving Examiners or Trainers.

It is for the public rather than the police, they have their own driving course although ours is based upon Roadcraft, the Police Drivers Manual and so there is a lot of crossover between the courses (my brother was sitting his Police Advanced (previously Class 1) test as I was doing my IAM Advanced test, the syllabuses were very similar although the IAM doesn't get to do the exciting high speed and blue light bits ).

The website is http://www.iam.org.uk/ and has some more information, please feel free to mail me through my profile if you want to talk to a real person about it and there are plenty of us on here who will happily help.

[markmullen]

For Sussex groups have a look on here:
http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroups/groupdirectory/sou...

[markmullen]

No probs, to answer your other question, you do the course in your own car, not only does this enable the Observer (a chap like myself and many others on here who show you and teach you how to pass your test) to do so for free but it also puts you at ease as it is the vehicle you're most used to.

[markmullen]

The IAM charges £85 for the whole course, that includes a book detailing the system that we use, as many observed runs out with an observer as you need (the syllabus is nominally 10 weeks, I took 4, my dad 6, my last associate 5, it depends on your experience and skill level now) and the test fee (you sit a test with a police driving examiner at the end, usually about 1 and a half hours). You also get your first year's membership of the IAM (£18 annually IIRC).

We don't get paid ourselves, we put in our time for free, I find observing improves my own driving and also the more numpties we convert into better drivers the easier all our jobs will be.

[markmullen]

TripleS said:

Mark - I do appreciate the unpaid work done by IAM Observers, and they deserve great credit for that, but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

That's why I feel quite strongly about this, and perhaps a more careful reading of what I've said on this subject during the past year or two would have enabled you to understand a little better.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I have read your posts concerning your experiences with the IAM and what comes over, to be frank, is the feeling that you are of the belief that as you are such a great driver that the IAM should adopt your "system" and that you are totally averse to criticism of your driving. Your comment about 48+ years of successful driving backs this theory up. You failed to answer my question of how you measure your success.

Maybe the Observer you had was unable to explain adequately exactly why we use the hand position we do. I agree that is not ideal however yet again this appears to reflect your arrogant approach to this situation, one of "he couldn't explain why so I must know better". Maybe just maybe it would be a wise idea on such a small point to simply accept the IAM's system instead of endlessly questioning it (especially knowing who developed the system the IAM uses, it is not just the random thoughts of your Observer).

Finally as something of a challenge, you say your driving is "successful" and has its own style, why not sit the IAM test, you don't actually have to accept the help of an Observer, if you're prepared to put your test fee where your mouth is. Sit the test and see if a Police qualified IAM Examiner agrees with your appraisal of your driving. If you come back having passed then feel free to criticise the IAM's system.