Why do French manufacturers not care?

[C70R]

Having spent the last week punting around Bordeaux as two couples in a Renault (hurriedly checks notes...) Kadjar, I need to vent with how unspeakably angry Renault's distain for the people who actually use their cars makes me.

Our hire car, with 6km on the clock, is a direct competitor for our real car, a Volvo XC40. The Volvo also took us to and from the airport this side, so it basically had a back-to-back test.

Ergonomically, the Renault is an absolute sh*tshow. I think I spent the first two hours driving the car just whacking elbows and knees against hard plastic corners. Wheel adjustability is so bad, that no manner of wheel/seat manipulation can stop it feeling as though the wheel is positioned and angled like some kind of child's toy car.

Switchgear layout is absolutely laughable. The audio control 'block' stuck on the back of the steering column belongs on a car from 1992, not 2022. The dashboard, part of which is basically unreadable in polarised sunglasses, managed to be overloaded yet give zero useful information aside from speed. The cherry on the cake - the button to enable cruise control is basically stuck, on its own, next to the handbrake. Just where you want it on the motorway.

Tyre and wind noise were also appalling relative to the Volvo, and something I'd only noticed when jumping back into our car after just getting used to it in the Renault.

How can a company who've been building cars so long get it so wrong?

[C70R]

Emeye said:

What's the price difference?

I don't think price difference should be the source of differences like those. They are the fundamentals, the basics.

I shouldn't expect to pay lots more money just to be easily able to change track from my steering wheel (the scrolling 'wheel' in the Renault is like something from a 90s Walkman).

[C70R]

Challo said:

C70R said:

Emeye said:

What's the price difference?

I don't think price difference should be the source of differences like those. They are the fundamentals, the basics.

I shouldn't expect to pay lots more money just to be easily able to change track from my steering wheel (the scrolling 'wheel' in the Renault is like something from a 90s Walkman).

But they are designing and building cars to a price point. To get in at the price they believe the market can accept for a Renault is perhaps reusing parts from previous models, and materials made to a cheap price point.

Should spending less mean that I should just put up with a rubbish driving position?

Shouldn't a 'good enough' driving position be par for the course with all cars in 2022? Not least with one that would have cost £26k if I'd bought it new?

[C70R]

boyse7en said:

C70R said:

I don't think price difference should be the source of differences like those. They are the fundamentals, the basics.

I shouldn't expect to pay lots more money just to be easily able to change track from my steering wheel (the scrolling 'wheel' in the Renault is like something from a 90s Walkman).

That's exactly the sort of thing you pay the extra money for. All those little pleasures cost, and more importantly people will stump up ridiculous amounts of money for them, so manufacturers want you to feel a bit "short changed" so you will upgrade/buy a better model.

The point is that I can technically do it on both.

On the Volvo, it's a button, located exactly where you'd expect, under my right thumb. It requires a simple, satisfying click.

On the Renault, it's done by locating this ridiculous audio control block, attached to the steering column at 4-5 o'clock. You then have to feel around the back of the block, find the scrolling wheel, and move it in the direction you wanted (which isn't obvious). What's that? You only wanted the next track? Oh, sorry, you went over a pothole so we've skipped three tracks for you.



It's just unforgiveably sh*t. It's like they just couldn't be bothered.

And it shouldn't take a genius to work out which of the above took less money to develop.

[C70R]

Martyn76 said:

C70R said:

boyse7en said:

C70R said:

I don't think price difference should be the source of differences like those. They are the fundamentals, the basics.

I shouldn't expect to pay lots more money just to be easily able to change track from my steering wheel (the scrolling 'wheel' in the Renault is like something from a 90s Walkman).

That's exactly the sort of thing you pay the extra money for. All those little pleasures cost, and more importantly people will stump up ridiculous amounts of money for them, so manufacturers want you to feel a bit "short changed" so you will upgrade/buy a better model.

The point is that I can technically do it on both.

On the Volvo, it's a button, located exactly where you'd expect, under my right thumb. It requires a simple, satisfying click.

On the Renault, it's done by locating this ridiculous audio control block, attached to the steering column at 4-5 o'clock. You then have to feel around the back of the block, find the scrolling wheel, and move it in the direction you wanted (which isn't obvious). What's that? You only wanted the next track? Oh, sorry, you went over a pothole so we've skipped three tracks for you.



It's just unforgiveably sh*t. It's like they just couldn't be bothered.

And it shouldn't take a genius to work out which of the above took less money to develop.

That's been a standard on Renaults for years (easily 10+), never had a problem in it the numerous Renaults I have driven including our 18 plate Clio, horses for courses and all that.

Is it ok in a ~£27,000 2022 car?

[C70R]

Jaguar steve said:

French cars are generally very competitively priced and are biased perhaps more than most toward weight reduction to aid fuel economy and as a result are sometimes found to be plasticy and flimsy and lack a feel of quality compared with other marques.

Pennies and grams shaved off occasionally shows and sometimes grates, but as another poster quite rightly said ya pays ya money...

Here's the thing. I've tried not to focus on material quality, because that would be too easy. And that's the kind of thing I expect to see when I spend less money.

The things I've focused on are where the cost of getting it right was an investment of time and brainpower, not just chucking nicer materials at it.

[C70R]

dibblecorse said:

C70R said:

Should spending less mean that I should just put up with a rubbish driving position?

Shouldn't a 'good enough' driving position be par for the course with all cars in 2022? Not least with one that would have cost £26k if I'd bought it new?

One mans rubbish driving position is another mans perfection .... you didn't like the car, it wasn't to your liking, plenty of others may well feel the same way about your car, its hardly worth a rant and a dig at the french is it ?

It was more using this car as an example of the things that have frustrated me about most French cars I've driven.

It's just like they don't care about the basics.

[C70R]

nickfrog said:

C70R said:

It was more using this car as an example of the things that have frustrated me about most French cars I've driven.

It's just like they don't care about the basics.

I don't think the Kadjar's driving position is particularly French. It is the same as a Nissan Qashqai (same platform) which is made in the UK.

But was presumably designed jointly between the French and Japanese if it's a platform-share?

[C70R]

kambites said:

C70R said:

Is it ok in a ~£27,000 2022 car?

At least it has physical buttons; it looks infinitely superior to having to do it through a touchscreen or capacative buttons!

That block thing just feels like a classic, French 'we're going to do it differently for the sake of it' exercise.

A bit like the C5/6 steering wheel, where the centre didn't rotate with the rim.

[C70R]

Challo said:

But thats your opinion. If you look at Dacia which is a Renault in basic form and they are flying out the dealership.

Renault will be building cars to what their customers want and seems to be doing ok.

I think you're doing the thing of over-representing what this corner of the internet thinks about Dacia.

Perfectly fine cars, but making up 6% of all European sales and selling fewer cars in all of Europe than VW did in the UK in 2021 isn't indicative of them changing the direction of the market.

[C70R]

kambites said:

C70R said:

kambites said:

C70R said:

Is it ok in a ~£27,000 2022 car?

At least it has physical buttons; it looks infinitely superior to having to do it through a touchscreen or capacative buttons!

That block thing just feels like a classic, French 'we're going to do it differently for the sake of it' exercise.

A bit like the C5/6 steering wheel, where the centre didn't rotate with the rim.

Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a better solution than what many "premium" brands are using these days.

I guess there's a fine (and highly personal) line between choosing not to follow the crowd because you think you have a better solution, and being different for the sake of being different even if the result is worse than the normal solution.

I recently installed a stalk very much like that into my car because personally I think it's the best solution for controlling the audio by touch.

I can't see any way that is objectively 'better' than being able to control track and volume from a 4-way 'd-pad' arrangement, under a thumb on the steering wheel?

[C70R]

nickfrog said:

C70R said:

I can't see any way that is objectively 'better' than being able to control track and volume from a 4-way 'd-pad' arrangement, under a thumb on the steering wheel?

I am really sorry but I find the Renault system objectively better as you can leave your thumb in the steering wheel at 9.15 in the optimum hand position.

I think you're possibly a little biased, having had time to grow used to it, as you mentioned.

If Renault are the only ones doing it like this, does it make them...
1. Rebels?
2. Visionaries?
3. Deluded?

[C70R]

Heartworm said:

Agree with this, switch the cruise on and it stays on,

Until you want the speed limiter, and then you're groping around in an unlit area by the handbrake, in the dark, on the motorway.

[C70R]

TwistingMyMelon said:

On the old anecdotes -

Ive driven lots of Volvo XC xxx's and could never get comfy - its like they design the seats for tall heavy people , of which im neither. I never gelled with any of the controls and as soon as you went near a corner - HOLD ON TIGHTS - ITS GONNA GET CHOPPY.

Ive driven one Renault in recent memory, maybe a new Cleo about 5 years ago, drove it up the road, hit 4k revs and got a little booast ---- a turbo on a petrol, seemed to go quite well, I quite liked it.

On the above Volvo are getting it wrong in my book

Neither of these two are any fun to drive. I think if you were buying either looking for that, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[C70R]

Davie said:

nickfrog said:

The thing is if you rent a car abroad and drive it on unfamiliar roads the last thing you want is to not being able to use it properly so I can totally see why the audio thing was a stressful experience as it probably takes a couple of weeks to get used it and only after which you start appreciating it.

So you've managed to get to a different country, via an airport, hired a car from a local, navigated your way through non UK signage, driven it sitting on the opposite side, on the opposite of the road with all their unfamiliar traffic rules whilst listening to a non English speaking radio station... but adjusting said radio using unfamiliar controls is the last thing you want? I guess this is why people go to Spain and seek out a pub that sells Carling and steak and ale pie with chips.

I'm not sure even the worst drama queen could find a stereo control stressful. It just stood out so prominently that it made me remark on the many other aspects of the car that disappointed relative to the Volvo.

Most of the week's driving was spent in slow-moving traffic around Bordeaux/St-Emilion/Cap Ferret, so any stresses were easily 'drained'.

[C70R]

surveyor said:

We had a S60 hire car in Florida. The dash was a confusing mess. The touch screen is horrendous.



We changed it to a minivan which was superior in every way. I'd have happily have had a Renault.

Coming from a car without a touchscreen, it was my biggest worry when getting the Volvo (we picked a new one up unseen, without a test-drive, mid-lockdown).

The first week or so was irritating, but the physical controls (of which there are still quite a few) are very good and very well-judged, to the point that you're rarely using the screen to input on an average journey (we don't have Android/Apple).

[C70R]

Toltec said:

Toltec said:

C70R said:

Should spending less mean that I should just put up with a rubbish driving position?

Shouldn't a 'good enough' driving position be par for the course with all cars in 2022? Not least with one that would have cost £26k if I'd bought it new?

Most cars I have driven have driving positions you need to compromise with. Many are simply horrible in my experience, I suspect part of the reason you bought the Volvo was because the ergonomics worked for you.

I didn't even see an XC40 in the flesh before we picked it up. I bought it mostly because I know it's rare that Volvo get ergonomics wrong.

So far, we've done a few 500+ mile slogs in that car, and it's been nothing but a pleasure.

[C70R]

HelldogBE said:

C70R said:

The cherry on the cake - the button to enable cruise control is basically stuck, on its own, next to the handbrake. Just where you want it on the motorway.

Try switching between (adaptive) cruise control and speed limiter in the facelift XC40/V60/V90...
Went from a button on the steering wheel to deep down into the infotainment screen.

What? That's insane.

When was the facelift? Our car is a 70 plate, and it takes two clicks of steering wheel buttons to switch between the two.

[C70R]

Doofus said:

C70R said:

What? That's insane.

I know, right? Why do Swedisn/Chinese manufacturers not care?

I've just done some digging.

The XC40 hasn't been facelifted yet.

So it's not "buried" anywhere. It literally takes two clicks on the left-hand steering wheel d-pad to switch between the two.

[C70R]

HelldogBE said:

C70R said:

Doofus said:

C70R said:

What? That's insane.

I know, right? Why do Swedisn/Chinese manufacturers not care?

I've just done some digging.

The XC40 hasn't been facelifted yet.

So it's not "buried" anywhere. It literally takes two clicks on the left-hand steering wheel d-pad to switch between the two.

Do some more digging. You'll find the XC40 facelift in the configurator. It's already like this on the XC40 P8 (BEV) I drove at launch, V60 FL and S/V90 FL. It's in the same menu as where you can enable one pedal driving.

What was even more horrid on the P8 is that there's no way to show the predicated battery range on the dash and only shows the %. The only way to know the remaining range is to ask the Android Auto infotainment with a voice command. Talk about HMI and UI design...

When was this facelift?

My phev shows % and range for the battery in the cluster...