R56 MCS Suspension/Chassis upgrades - best value?

[Complex]

I am running a 2010 (N18) MCS which I have owned for 7 months, the car is on 66k miles.

After a few months of running stock I carried out a few mods to accommodate more power:

- Cobra Sports Cat
- ITG Panel filter
- IKG Iridium spark plugs
- Manic Stage 1B remap

The car is now running at least 230bhp and I really do not want or need any more power.

Given I plan on keeping the car for another 4 years and in light of the power upgrades I'm seriously looking at suspension:

I am relatively uneducated as to how important each suspension/chassis upgrade is for handling so I am finding it difficult to decide on what represents good value for money. The car is a daily driver and will see track only once or twice a year, so I need it to be suitable for UK roads.

I'm thinking AP coil-overs, polyurethane bushes (a couple of my bushes are starting to need replacing so looking at cost efficiency while I get the coil-overs done) all round and a proper geo set up done. This will probably cost circa £1.1k all in.

Is the above likely to give me the best bang for buck in terms of a fast-road, daily usable suspension setup or would I be much wiser to invest in more premium coilovers? I have tried to do some reading into this on Mini-torque but it is pretty hard to discern between exactly what people like about the coilovers, whether they're just doing it for aesthetics, and the subjective point of what is actually acceptably comfortable ride quality.

I think I'm just looking for some reassurance that this level of outlay is going to give real tangible benefits in handling and grip without breaking my spine or whether I need to spend more to achieve that.

[Complex]

Well I'm clearly showing my ignorance here then as I understood a coilover to be just a shock and spring set sold in combination.

As far as I can see, Bilstein B14s are almost twice the price as the APs for the same level of adjusability (ie height only). Which is another thing - I see a lot of ravings over dampening/camber adjustability on the higher end models but might this be far and above what I need?

That's kind of what I'm getting to. Paying £950 for the coilovers only will soon tot up to £1600 with bushes, installation, and geo setup. That's approaching 25% of the value of the car - I would expect the car to be far and above what it is currently after that sort of outlay.

Sorry - posted the above before I saw your edit. Have taken on board your comments, thanks.

Interesting that you raise quite a lot of caution of ride quality on any aftermarket coilovers, especially as I've seen a lot of 'they ride better than stock' on mini-torque (which I don't overly trust, as a rule).

Edited by Complex on Tuesday 7th November 13:01

[Complex]

Thanks, understood re how coilovers are configured.

Much of my view so far has been distorted by comments like 'installed XYZ coilovers and the car is transformed'. I am not at all interested in the aesthetics they offer, I do a lot of 'progressive' drives on B roads and would like to improve the experience, not purely through carrying higher speed but just the general feel of the car: greater precision and more progressiveness.

I am doing my best to man-maths the cost given I'll be keeping the car for 4 years yet but do have to draw the line somewhere.

[Complex]

ash73 said:

I looked into this a while ago. a lot of MINI owners install AP coilovers for aesthetics to lower the ride height because they are cheap, and they are stiffer than stock; AP plus poly bushes will rattle your fillings!

Tein are a reasonable budget option while KW are the premium brand most people recommend, ST coilovers are also made by KW and have slightly softer springs but without the protective coatings, and are somewhat cheaper.

The most interesting option I found was KW street comfort coilovers, but didn't go ahead because I couldn't find any proper reviews of them.

http://www.kwsuspensions.co.uk/kw/info/coil_overs/...

Suggest you have a chat with Chris at Lohen.

It was Lohen who installed the engine/exhaust mods and undertook the remap and I did raise the idea of coilovers with them while there. The feedback was that their Tein Coilovers (similar price to APs) would improve handling at the cost of comfort and that the STs would offer both improved handling and comfort. I was looking for second opinions from punters to this. It also raises the question of the level adjustability I would actually need as the STs are available with just ride height, or damping or damping+camber too. Again, I don't know to what degree this might be overkill for someone who just does a lot of fast road driving but who has no interest in aesthetics.

Appreciate the feedback, has given me cause to reconsider somewhat rather than just go ahead with some low-end coilovers and firm bushes.

Edit - @ CarsorBikes - Thanks, certainly not making the decision easier by coming at it from a completely different angle but I'll look into what you've said. I have given a Quaife a lot of thought, the only thing I'm conscious of is being given a (albeit impressive) gimmick which might compromise my learning of handling a fast FWD by letting me be far more liberal (maybe even sloppy) on the throttle and flatter me by putting power down easily out of tight corners rather than training myself to balance it it more acutely.

Edited by Complex on Tuesday 7th November 14:19

[Complex]

I think what also makes this kind of discussion harder is that because I'm not overly familiar with different types of suspensions setup and the language used to describe 'what I want' from the suspension, I can't really articulate it even if I did know - which I don't.

I certainly wouldn't want anything firmer than stock, I can tolerate it from the driver's seat with a steering wheel to hold onto - it's pretty shocking for passengers. If I was to retain this level of firmness when spending considerably on upgrading (say coilovers) I would want extensive benefits in feel, progressiveness, grip and traction.

My uneducated comments on how I find the stock suspension:

- Obviously the very firm ride, but on the brink of tolerable. Far less comfortable than my friends' stock 182 clio or even coilovered (and heavily modded in every way) '05 Megane F1.

- Initial turn-in and loading up the car is fine and intuitive enough, though is a little slack and seems to take a second for the weight to settle - maybe that is me being fussy and without too much to compare it to in terms of other hot FWD cars.

- The car is deflected pretty easily on less-than-good surfaces and even at constant throttle needs a lot of input on the steering to keep it straight.

- The front can be pretty easily unsettled when coming out of a corner on non-perfect surfaces. It quite often bounces up a little and absolutely ruins traction even when from where I'm sitting the bump feels mild.

Somewhat related to the above but a different strand of discussion: I am still using the tyres the car came with as they were all relatively new: Dunlop SP01s on the rear and budget stters on the front which I'm having fun trying to grind down. What are people's thoughts on deliberately underspeccing their tyres so that for road use the limit comes at a more reasonable speed? My default choice would be to put PS4s all round but might consider something mid-range as I'm more interested in learning FWD car control and having fun than maximum grip and outright speed.

[Complex]

The tyres are certainly going to be going, I just thought it would be worth running the car with horrible ones up front so I can experience something difference and appreciate the car even more when I put something better on, which is most likely to be PS4s all round.

I am hoping my rubbish tyres up front aren't colouring my take on the stock suspension too much.

When I had the engine and exhaust work done at Lohen I was given advisories on 'FWBB' and LEM soft', so:

Given that and the advice given so far on the thread, perhaps something like:

- Powerflex Front Wishbone Rear Bush £58 http://www.lohen.co.uk/shop/gen-2-mini/chassis/bus...

- Powerflex Lower Engine Mount Bush £23 http://www.lohen.co.uk/shop/gen-2-mini/chassis/bus...

- Rear antiroll bar c. £280 https://www.tarmacsportz.co.uk/suspension/braces-a...

---

Then if necessary to go further:

- Rear control arms £100 https://orranje.co.uk/silver-project-rear-control-...

- MeisterR ZetaCRD+ Coilvers £880 (gives camber adjustment on the front) £https://www.tarmacsportz.co.uk/brands/meisterr/meisterr-mini-r56-07-zetacrd-coilovers.html I could alternatively for the the (KW) ST XTAs which give height/dampening/camber adjustment too for around 20% more cost but the MeisterRs seem pretty well reviewed and developed. I would be spending twice as much to get the equivalent adjustability on KW v2/v3s - presumably their benefits of stainless steel coating can be negated by some annual maintenance to the MeisterR/STs?


The thing is, the above all-in is going to sail past £2.4k when the fitting and geometry is done at Lohen (and then redone if the upgrades are done incrementally).

I would like to think if I ever did go with all of the above that it would hopefully blow away most things this side of the current 2015+ hot hatches (Golf R, CTR, Cupra 280), right?????

[Complex]

Doing things bit by bit certainly makes sense theoretically. For me the main drawback is the efficiencies lost in 1) Multiple trips to Lohen 2) Not combining jobs to save on labour cost 3) Geometry needing to be set after each incremental change.

For example, presumably if I was having coilovers fitted I could get all of the suspension/engine mount bushes done at the same time at little additional labour? To do them isolation would incur c. £300 labour.

I don't know if I'm overstating the above but say I was to get all of these mods fitted within 5-6 months of each other anyway, I wouldn't be too pleased about having to spend an additional few hundred pounds on labour compared to doing them as one.

Same point with geometry but to be honest I have no idea how long that takes and extent to which it needs adjusting each time after minor mods.

Tyres will certainly be done, now the cold and wet has hit I'm enjoying the fun of having no grip nor traction most of the time on half-worn budget tyres.

[Complex]

MDifficult said:

I'm just in the process of having the Powerflex lower engine mount insert and purple lower arm bushes put onto my GP2 - my research suggesting these give the biggest bang for the buck.

Pick the car up in the next few days so I'll let you know.

Thanks, would appreciate it.

Given you're in Berkshire, mind me asking who does your work on the GP2? I'm based in Oxford and work in South Ox so a specialist in Berkshire would be ideal.

[Complex]

Thanks Mdifficult.

Bushes are now frozen on my list of mods to be done.

One thing I was thinking about is wheels. I’m running stock 17s and if I am ever to change them (would be for cosmetic reasons) would going down to 16s be wise? If it could give a little extra margin of comfort it may allow any given suspension setup to be less compromised?

Very few people seem to run 16s on an R56 though. Is there any reason not to run 16s? Slightly more comfort and slightly cheaper tyres doesn’t sound like a bad thing.

[Complex]

I’m running standard r56 MCS brakes. Don’t really have any aspirations to improve them, they’re more than adequate fme.

One thing I am finding with looking at tyres for 16s is the range is incredibly reduced and the premium performance tyres (P Zero, PS4s, Conti SC) aren’t available at all.

What’s the best R16 195 55 for all round fast road use?

[Complex]

E-bmw said:

I went up to 205/55/16 & went with Dunlop Sport Max RT, they are currently around £57.00/corner.

Uniroyal Rainsport 3 are a bit cheaper for the same size.

You should find that size actually makes the speedo more accurate also.

Thanks E bmw and others who've had input, really appreciated it:

Update:

I will be buying a set of 16 inch Sparco Assetto Garas, they are both less boring and more importantly over 2.5kg per corner lighter than my chunky stock crown spokes:
https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/view-wh...

Available in offset 37 or 42 - if it makes a difference, which is preferable?

Planning to put PS4s on as they appear to be available in 205 55 16, though not 205 50 16.

As for bushes:

http://www.lohen.co.uk/shop/gen-2-mini/chassis/bus...

PFF5-201 - Front Wishbone Rear Bush
PFF5-206 - Lower Engine Mount Small
PFF5-207 - Lower Engine Mount Large Bush Insert
PFR5-1103 - Rear Trailing Arm Front Bush
PFR5-115 - Rear Shock Top Mounting Bush

Each of the bushes in the above pack seem to have been mentioned independently of one another (I have no knowledge of suspension components so if different words have been used to describe the same bush area, let me know!).

Then geometry set by Lohen, coilovers can wait for the time being pending the outcome of the above.

[Complex]

Assetto Garas are now ordered in 16 inch and will be fitted with PS4s in the larger profiled 205 55 R16. Hoping this will increase the comfort too.

Then will be up to Lohen for polybushing and geo and will take it from there.

Current thoughts on a next stage would be Meister R coilovers which seem to give the best level of adjustability and quality for the money. Unsure whether I need the adjustable top mounts they come with though for purely road use. If not then I'd opt for ST XAs.

[Complex]

Some thread re-ignition here but I have done some refining of what I'll be doing in terms of progressively upgrading the suspension/chassis.

In the next week or so I'm due to have:

- 16 Assetto Gara with Pilot Sport 4s in 205/55 all round.
- Alta 22mm RARB
- Powerflex bushes to engine mount + front wishbone rears
- Geo @ Lohen

Now, I'm pretty much settled on my coilovers, they will either be Meister Rs (though now slightly disinclined to them due to them being monotube and somewhat more track focused that than I might like, albeit branded road/track) or ST XTAs.

The only thing I'm considering are perhaps picking up some 2nd hand KW V2s or ST XAs and then supplying my own top mounts, in the case that I do this, how sensitive will things be to me getting either:

https://orranje.co.uk/shop-by-car/bmw-mini/mini-ge...

or RTMs/ Vorshlags at three time the cost?

The difference in retail between XTA and XAs are around £220 and with the only difference being the top mounts, I could split between and just get Silver Projects or perhaps second hand RTMs? I do appreciate the value in doing things properly and not on-the-cheap but I also may not need top quality over-engineered parts for the type of use I'm proposing - 13k miles a year commuting/business with around 1-2k for fun.

Also a general query on coilover reliability: are these to be seen as a consumable item given I'm doing around 14,000 miles a year in the car in all weather and temps or will regular lithium greasing be perfectly adequate? For my kind of use and the fact I won't be tracking the car much, is anything other than KWs a false economy?

[Complex]

Thanks for the feedback. That is sort of frustrating to hear as I had used the fact that BR/Meister Rs were slightly more fast fast road/track focused than the STs to narrow down my choices and sort of funnel myself into a decision. Sounds like if BRs are fine then the new Mesiter R ZetaCRD+ will be more than enough.

Still leaves outstanding the point of how well they (or any non KW Inox) will last on 14k+ miles a year all year round. I do not particularly want to be in this position 30,000 miles down the line with rusty/seizing coilovers.

Not the worst position to be in: to have 3-4 potential coilovers to install rather than 1 (subject to whether Silver Project top mounts will suffice, if they don't then I may be priced out of some).

[Complex]

Thanks for the response. That’s quite interesting given that in the hundreds of threads I’ve read in the subject, that level of maintenance hasn’t ever been mentioned. That might change my view on getting them at all given I don’t have a ramp, nor tools, nor any mechanical knowledge m, nor any inclination to get my hands messy.

Edited by Complex on Saturday 2nd December 00:53

[Complex]

Thanks - maybe I’ll do some research into maintenance and the various coatings which are used as it seems to vary a lot - with KW Inox being the best?

[Complex]

Having bushes, tyres and a new RARB fitted this week - I have bought a of adjustable rear control arms with a view to them getting fitted next year if/when I go for coilolvers.

Will I see much benefit in fitting them now with stock suspension? Conscious of incurring more labour cost right now if it might give little benefit given the car won’t be going much/at all lower yet?

[Complex]

An update given I have now had the new wheels, new PS4 tyres, RARB and engine mount/FRWB bushes all fitted, followed by geometry:

The car is now miles ahead of what it was beforehand. Steering feel, sharpness of turn-in, the accuracy with which the car can be placed, total grip, progressiveness of grip and especially traction out of corners have all improved immensely. I have only driven it in sub 5 degrees temps but after around 250 miles I can be pretty sure that in the warm/dry the car is now far far beyond fast enough for any kind of road use - I think coilovers can wait at least a year, if ever.

Two issues have arisen though:

The engine is now making a distant whistling sound, the only thing I could compare it to would be to a jet engine whistle. It gets higher pitched and louder with revs. It was really quite frustrating and is now all I can really hear when revving the car out. I don't know if it is intake related or not. It actually seems to be more pronounced if I rev the car in neutral while the car is rolling at speed than if I rev it in neutral at a standstill.

Issue 2 is far more frustrating: since the RARB has been installed there is a horrific knocking at the rear-right of the suspension. It is absolutely intolerable and pretty much makes driving the car without music on unbearable. It happens when any input at all is made or when the road is anything but silk; it will knock/creak more than 100 times per minute. It must be related to the RARB installation as no other work was done to the rear of the car except the geometry and it was not doing it in the period between the new wheels/tyres being fitted and the above work being carried out.

Where do I stand on this kind of knocking, it cannot be normal and is only doing it on one side - should I be expected to be able to have the car returned and it fitted correctly? I have not yet raised it with the installer as I wanted to see if it would 'bed-in' over a hundred miles or so.

[Complex]

Thank you for the replies and guidance.

As said, I hear so many tales of knocking 'that is to be expected' and so on but there car is now booked in.

The whistling sound was occurring the day before the car had the suspension/chassis work done so I will have it investigated separately. The car made 225bhp on the dyno which was below what I was expecting given with my mods on the stock map it made 189bhp.

I'll be taking things very gently on both the engine and suspension and see what turns up - I can't get it looked at for another 5 days.

Modding is very exciting, isn't it...

[Complex]

Suspension is being sorted this Wednesday. Car is being treated gently until then.

Here is a video of the sound I’m describing, my phone microphone is terrible but it actually manages to pick up the metallic whistling type sound very well.

https://youtu.be/Y8YCRXyayjA

This sound was *not* present a couple of weeks ago and came on suddenly.

It correlates exactly with the revs; if I rev out then lift off the will slow ‘whirr’ down in pitch/volume as the revs falls.