EP3 - does it still cut it in 2017/18?
Discussion
Ok guys I think I've posted something about this car before like this, but EP3 prices are on the floor and only likely to go one way, so I am fancying getting a cheap one next to replace my cheap and rusting MX-5..
partly prompted by a conversation with a petrolhead in my building at work who works for Warranty Direct. He was bemoaning the reliability of German cars in general (The Golf R apparently tops the league of warranty direct claims) and telling me how he'd bought an EP3 for a grand and absolutely loved it......
I do however wonder, does it cut it in 2017/18 in a world of effortlessly fast turbo charged hot hatches and saloons?
I've read posts on PH by people who say stuff like "blah, blah, my TDI kept up with an EP3, no trouble" and..."blah, blah, they're gutless below 5000 RPM.." which makes me wonder if they no long feel very fast.
That said, my MX-5 has a n/a engine which only really feels remotely brisk above 4000 RPM so I'm used to using all the rev range and TBH, if you drive that car hard it can keep up with your average modern TDI, so I would imagine a CTR with a 0-100 time when new of around 17 secs should still be quite brisk if you drive it properly...
so, what do you think, is it still a good drive in the modern era?
partly prompted by a conversation with a petrolhead in my building at work who works for Warranty Direct. He was bemoaning the reliability of German cars in general (The Golf R apparently tops the league of warranty direct claims) and telling me how he'd bought an EP3 for a grand and absolutely loved it......
I do however wonder, does it cut it in 2017/18 in a world of effortlessly fast turbo charged hot hatches and saloons?
I've read posts on PH by people who say stuff like "blah, blah, my TDI kept up with an EP3, no trouble" and..."blah, blah, they're gutless below 5000 RPM.." which makes me wonder if they no long feel very fast.
That said, my MX-5 has a n/a engine which only really feels remotely brisk above 4000 RPM so I'm used to using all the rev range and TBH, if you drive that car hard it can keep up with your average modern TDI, so I would imagine a CTR with a 0-100 time when new of around 17 secs should still be quite brisk if you drive it properly...
so, what do you think, is it still a good drive in the modern era?
Paul671 said:
Faster than your average car down a decent bit of road, doesn't have 300lbft at 1000rpm though so you do have to use the gears. Disregard anyone who claims 200bhp in a light(ish) hatch isn't more than enough to get you into trouble, although the modern hyper hatches are in another league performance wise.
For the money they are very hard to beat (especially for track use), although I'm not personally a fan, I think it needed a bit more DC5 DNA. My ropey old Accord Type R is way nicer to drive.
Funny you mention the ATR, I nearly bought one back in the day, but instead went for a classic shape Impreza Turbo, a decision I regretted when its bottom end bearing went only 6 weeks later......For the money they are very hard to beat (especially for track use), although I'm not personally a fan, I think it needed a bit more DC5 DNA. My ropey old Accord Type R is way nicer to drive.
...As I said in my post, I have no issue stirring the gears. I own two cars, one is a torquey Insignia diesel, the other a torque light MX-5 NB 1.8i which needs to be thrashed to feel even remotely brisk! If I get a CTR, It will be as a toy not a daily driver, so revving the nuts of it wont be a problem!!
aka_kerrly said:
To give you some figures... to compare a EP3 to a new Fiesta & Mini because *in my opinion, the size of a EP3 makes it more comparable to a newer Fiesta an Mini than it does a new Focus or Golf.
An EP3 has a power to weight ratio of 158hp per tonne and does 0-100mph in 16.0sec , 30-70mph 6.0sec
a 2014 Fiesta ST185 154hp per tonne 0-100mph in 17sec 30-70mph 6.2sec
a 2015 Mini Cooper S 150hp per tonne 0-100mph in 16.8 sec
The new era small turbo engines can muster some pokey 0-60mph times and if you were to do a 6th gear 30mph foot flat to the floor test the Civic would indeed be embarrassed but that's hardly relevant to someone who knows how to use a gearbox.
..and I believe the ST makes 197BHP on its overboost function....so this makes it even more impressive that its not quite as quick out of the box as the now nearly 17 year old EP3 Civic Type R !!! An EP3 has a power to weight ratio of 158hp per tonne and does 0-100mph in 16.0sec , 30-70mph 6.0sec
a 2014 Fiesta ST185 154hp per tonne 0-100mph in 17sec 30-70mph 6.2sec
a 2015 Mini Cooper S 150hp per tonne 0-100mph in 16.8 sec
The new era small turbo engines can muster some pokey 0-60mph times and if you were to do a 6th gear 30mph foot flat to the floor test the Civic would indeed be embarrassed but that's hardly relevant to someone who knows how to use a gearbox.
the comparison with the FN2 is interesting. This months Modern Classics mag features a buying guide on the FN2, but I think they're still too expensive for my "second hand, weekend toy" budget.......
The other point is that I find these old type Rs more my cup of tea than stuff like the new all singing and dancing turbo Civic Type R. The new car is just far too big IMO to be really usable down narrow country lanes, which used to be the natural habitat of the hot hatch. Its all about getting the quickest Nurburgring time now. In "my day", it was all about being the quickest on something like then B660 !!
chrismc1977 said:
That’s the very essence of why I chose an Integra R tbh
Revvy, raw, light and a perfect B-road blaster. It also attracts many admiring glances. As a FWD N/A it’s very hard to better. Sadly (for others) a bit niche nowadays to be a bargain buy
The EP3 represents good value. The K20 is very tweakable & if you can run to a slip diff as well then very capable indeed.
Alternatively an Accord R is something of a Q car. It feels more ITR than CTR to drive. Great steering & the H22 responds well to breathing mods & a shorter fd....
Have you read Sam Smith's piece in this months issue of Car? He's an ITR owner and basically says that whilst he loves the new Civic Type R but also finds it reprehensible compared with his Integra which he loves. Its 500 pounds heavier too!Revvy, raw, light and a perfect B-road blaster. It also attracts many admiring glances. As a FWD N/A it’s very hard to better. Sadly (for others) a bit niche nowadays to be a bargain buy
The EP3 represents good value. The K20 is very tweakable & if you can run to a slip diff as well then very capable indeed.
Alternatively an Accord R is something of a Q car. It feels more ITR than CTR to drive. Great steering & the H22 responds well to breathing mods & a shorter fd....
Sadly for me I've missed the boat on the ITR. Cheapest one on Autotrader currently is £5K with some being advertised for £10K. Its a pity as its absolutely my sort of car. But you can get an EP3 for a little over 2K and that surely is a bargain for what it offers.....
egor110 said:
aka_kerrly said:
greenarrow said:
features a buying guide on the FN2, but I think they're still too expensive for my "second hand, weekend toy" budget.......
The other point is that I find these old type Rs more my cup of tea than stuff like the new all singing and dancing turbo Civic Type R. The new car is just far too big IMO to be really usable down narrow country lanes,
Completely agree, I also considered spending nearly double what my ep3 cost and going FN2 (im also an Modern Classic mag fan) but I was underwhelmed by it as Honda have gone too far down the insulation/creature comforts route which isn't what a Type R is all about. The other point is that I find these old type Rs more my cup of tea than stuff like the new all singing and dancing turbo Civic Type R. The new car is just far too big IMO to be really usable down narrow country lanes,
I dare say at this point I am VERY happy with my new toy!
Now it's time to re learn driving , you haven't got torque so rev the nuts off it
Trouble is people with turbos or big engines with low down grunt get into these r types , fast clios and think there slow because they drive them the same as there turbo cars , there not slow you just have to actually use the whole rev range .
...I agree..... I always think the 30-70 through the gears figure is one of the best indictors of real world performance and according to Autocar, the EP3 did that in 6.0 secs. This compares to the brand new Hyundai i30N which was tested by Autocar at 5.6 secs., or the 245 PS Octavia VRS, which took 5.8secs ... so actually not as far off the pace after 17 years as you might think (I appreciate the Civic Type R and Golf R are in a different league)
...obviously the turbo torque of these new hot hatches mean that any EP3 caught in the wrong gear, would be left gasping a bit, but I think overall, the EP3 is a great half way house between the older, lighter rawer n/a hot hatches and the new heavier, very quick ones.....and they are heavy, the new Hyundai is weighing in at 1478KG!!
Just need to find a cheap EP3 now that has some life left in it....
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