Which tyre type for this car?

[YTee]

Yet another tyre topic, but it's not just a 'this versus that' question you'll be pleased to learn.

I have a Ford Focus 1.8 that I am using to learn track driving techniques. The car has about 125bhp after the minor mods I've done. Currently I'm running Toyo T1-Rs, but they are melting when pushed hard in the dry and I need a solution.

I have two sets of wheels: The original alloys (15 inch, 195 width tyres), and a set of ST170 wheels (17 inch, 215 width tyres). One set of wheels needs to be road worthy at all times, the other does not need to be. It doesn't matter which is and which isn't. I can take both sets of wheels to the track and swap them depending on weather.

I am looking for advice on which class and ratio of tyre to use on each set of wheels. By class, I mean standard road/performance road/semi-slick, and by ratio obviously 40/45/50 etc. I'm conscious of increasing rolling circumference, costing me valuable torque at the wheels.

The last criteria is to keep the cost to a minimum whilst eliminating the issue of melting tyres.

My current thoughts after doing some research are:

Toyo T1-R 215/40R17 - For road and wet track use.
Yoko AD08R 195/50R15 - For dry track use.

Is my logic sound or am I totally mad to consider using the smaller wheels for dry track use?

Many thanks in advance.

[YTee]

quimbles said:

if you went to a 215/45 you can get nankang, frederal etc for around £80

you can also get rainsport 3 for £40 in the 15inch. rainsport 2 was a great wet trackday tyre... not sure about the 3.

Not chasing outright laptimes, but I don't mind sacrificing width on the wet tyres if that means a better experience on the dry set. Good shout on the Rain Sports both, I'll look into those.

Regards going with 45 ratio tyres, that means a greater rolling circumference than the car started out with. Probably not too important, but I thought that was a bad thing. Also won't the bigger wheels be heavier and therefore more un-sprung mass? Maybe I'm over-thinking this though

[YTee]

Thanks for the input folks. I hadn't considered those Goodyears, they're a bit more money but could be worth it.

Let me explain my concern about circumference... (http://www.wheelcalc.com/)

The standard tyres on the car are 195/60R15.

215/45R17 represents a 1.76% increase in circumference versus standard wheels. So, I was looking at 215/40R17 instead which gives me a 1.37% decrease.

Given that less is better on this scale, I wanted to stick with 40 to get every last drop of torque from the meager power plant I have available.

However, if you're saying that using track class tyres like Nankangs or Federals is worth the 1.76% increase in circumference, then I would be happy to give it a whirl

[YTee]

E-bmw said:

Oh, and by the way don't use T1R's they are a TERRIBLE TYRE!!!!! Especially in the wet!

Hahaha. There's someone here in my office that says the same, but I actually found them pretty good. Of course, I'm not throwing much in the way of power (or skill) at them.

I will definitely change them once I've worn them down though, enough people have said they're rubbish now for me to start to believe it!

[YTee]

Ahbefive said:

Best to get a proper track based tyre.

Thanks. That's the kind of confirmation that will help me to justify the cost of all this

[YTee]

quimbles said:

you'll be needing to carry all the speed through the corners with 125 bhp anyway so the extra grip will help.

That's an excellent point. Cornering performance will be more useful than straight-line performance. Okay, I'll give it a whirl!

[YTee]

Darn it QBee, why did you have to go and add another twist... I'm torn enough as it is!

What I found most interesting about your story was that not just one but two TVRs managed to keep going for 15 laps!! J/k

Seriously though, if what you're saying is true (and I've no reason to doubt it) then that's a huge deal, because it means I will only need one set of wheels and tyres for all weathers.

When I factor in that Rain Sport 3 are available in 215/40R17 as well, it's even more reason to go that route!!

Ahhhh the dilema!

[YTee]

300bhp/ton said:

If it was me and I had a set of dedicated rims for only track use. Then I'd be looking for some part worn race slicks or remould race slicks. Or at the very least a tarmac rally/semi slick, either part worn or remould.

I'd buy whatever size is cheapest/most plentifull/ easiest to replace.

Interesting. I'm up for looking into that. Any idea where I might go look for things like that?

[YTee]

I shall look on eBay and compare prices. Thanks folks. Wish me luck.

[YTee]

Really appreciate all the input folks. I'm glad there is some disagreement actually, it just goes to show how personal a lot of this stuff must be.

To those wondering how experienced I am, I'm definitely a novice, but I would like to think I'm fast improving. I've learned to handle the Focus on the track pretty well, however since it's FWD and only 125bhp that's hardly an amazing achievement. I've no idea how I would fare in a tail-happy RWD car or something big and torquey. I'm certainly looking forward to learning though!

I think on balance I'm going to go with the track tyre grade (Federal/Nankang etc.) and the Federals look to be the cheapest in the size I would need. Maybe if I try that first and then evaluate them, and once I think I'm ready (and if the car holds up to it) then I could consider slicks after that.

Anything of the suggestions here has to be miles better than the melting T1-Rs I've got now, or the set of Conti Premium Contact 5s I melted on my first track day! Just wish it didn't cost so much to learn these lessons

[YTee]

E-bmw said:

Having tried both, for me, the Federals are cheaper for a reason, the Nankangs are so much better.

Good info thanks, and I've just found the Nankangs on Demon Tweeks for less than the Federals. Score!

[YTee]

Itsallicanafford said:

Firstly, great choice of car, I did 100,000 miles in my mk1 focus 1.8, never missed a beat and the handling is great.

Thanks. I agree. I've had two of these in my time and both have been cheap, reliable and really fun to drive. Who needs refinement when you have all of those qualities

[YTee]

Excellent thanks.

I'll be buying these in October and I've decided to use the 15s as dry wheels with NS-2Rs (because they're a lot cheaper than 888s and I need to keep the costs down) and the 17s as wet/road wheels with RainSport 3s on. If the NS-2Rs still don't give me enough grip, then next time around I'll go with the 888s.

I'll post back after the first track day I do on them with some (no doubt positive) results.

[YTee]

Jbliss said:

NS2-R's

Thanks. Oh and you need a full stop after that mate

[YTee]

EMKRAFT said:

I had a supercharged St170 and the best tyres I have ever had on it were kumho ecsta v70a list 1b track spec and road legal they are very similar to the toyo 888 but they heat up much faster and last twice as long, as a rough guide for you on the nurburgring and the only difference between the last visit was the tyres, my lap time from bridge to gantry dropped by 2.23s and the brakes were starting to go by the end of the day so I played a bit with the geometry settings and pressures to get a really good result in the handling department. I will give you the settings that took us 3 months to complete and I promise that you will not get a better setup for road and track than this. You ps the previous tyres were yokohama advan parada and the final setting was 3 degrees more castor than oem, 2.5 degrees negative camber and 1.5 degrees toe out, rear was 1.5 to 2 degrees negative camber and 0 degrees toe angle and the warm pressures were 36 psi front and 33 rear, before taking it out on cold tyres I started with nsf 34psi and osf 35psi nsr 31psi and osr 32psi, 3 laps of castle combe is a great way to get to operating temperature and I was around the 36 front and 34 rear in this time, nurburgring is more bumpy than the combe and I ran 34psi front and 32 rear at operating temperature. Email me for any further information about spring rates to arb sizing etc. Enjoy

Thanks for taking the time to provide all of that detail. I can't adjust the suspension on my car I'm afraid (at least, I don't think I can), since it's standard, but what I can do is play with the tyre pressures. I ran 33psi (cold) all around last time and the osf hit 36 after a few laps at Thruxton. Looks like I'm nearly there but I will try reducing the rears a bit next time around.