An 'auto' for track and town - Am I dreaming?
Discussion
Some of you might remember the last "what track car" thread I started around a year ago. Due to joining a startup, I never got around to consolidating two cars into a 'do it all' car. Priorities change, and all that...
In 2018, the objective is the same, albeit with a slightly higher budget and slightly different constraints. Due to moving even more centrally in London and no longer having the luxury of MrsC's company hack, we're going to be a single car household.
For ~£12k this car needs to:
While I appreciate that neither will be the last word in scalpel-sharp track weaponry, I'd be keen to hear the thoughts of those who have driven them on track.
ETA - I've also just realised that the Evo X came in some sort of hybrid auto flavour, so let's throw that in the mix too.
In 2018, the objective is the same, albeit with a slightly higher budget and slightly different constraints. Due to moving even more centrally in London and no longer having the luxury of MrsC's company hack, we're going to be a single car household.
For ~£12k this car needs to:
- Sit in busy London traffic (hence the need for an auto)
- Carry two people, plus two small pet carriers and weekend bags (probably means two-seaters/convertibles are out)
- Sit in relative comfort at 80-85mph on the motorway
- Be fun to drive on track, while not chasing laptimes (4-5 times a year)
- Have a few creature comforts (decent stereo, aircon etc.)
While I appreciate that neither will be the last word in scalpel-sharp track weaponry, I'd be keen to hear the thoughts of those who have driven them on track.
ETA - I've also just realised that the Evo X came in some sort of hybrid auto flavour, so let's throw that in the mix too.
Edited by C70R on Friday 5th January 22:59
Cheers both - helpful input. I must admit to being a bit underwhelmed by the DSG on Mk5 Golf GTi that I once drove, so I'd need to have a play with a remapped one at some point.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
Steve H said:
I've been on track in a number of SMG E46 M3s and they have without exception all been godawful gearboxes. The box on the E92 is completely the opposite and a total joy to use but presumably out of budget in this case........
A pal offered me his e92 at the trade value he was getting, and I was sorely tempted. But the potential running costs put a dent in my enthusiasm...Can you expand on the SMG point at all? Did the cars have the software update?
JQ said:
I have no experience of either, but a Scirocco would not be top of my list of trackday car. How about a Toyota GT86 - light, nimble and rear wheel drive?
Interesting. I wasn't even aware that these could be bought with a funky autobox. Do you have any experience you can share?ETA - Not so sure about the "light" bit. There's not much between the Scirocco and GT86.
CaptainMorgan said:
C70R said:
Cheers both - helpful input. I must admit to being a bit underwhelmed by the DSG on Mk5 Golf GTi that I once drove, so I'd need to have a play with a remapped one at some point.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The MK5 would have had an early DSG box. I've driven a 6 speed in a 2013 TT and a 2017 S3 with the 7 speed and they were both lovely to use. Although I havent had the chance to drive it since, the S3 has now been mapped, it's owner is chuffed with it. FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The DCT box in the BMWs are the only other boxes I'd look at for continued track use, but as mentioned running costs increase with a BMW and long term there's no way to service a DCT box, the DSG boxes have a service schedule.
The E92 is definitely out of scope, sadly. At any rate, at 1.7T it's a bit lardier than I'd ideally like for driving on track.
Rob_F said:
I test drove a BRZ auto some time ago, i thought it was surprisingly good. Not miles away from my DSG Golf R really.
Rob
I was about to say "really?" until I noticed that you said "my DSG Golf". That is high praise indeed.Rob
However, most of the reviews I've found seem to suggest that the GT86's lack of torque is even further exacerbated by the autobox, so that's likely to be a killer for me. In an ideal world, ~200bhp/tonne (and plenty of torque) is where fun starts to happen.
BrotherMouzone said:
CLK55 coupe.
But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
At >1700kg, the CLK55 would be miserable on track. Also, that 5spd slushbox is clumsy enough when you're trying to make progress on the road. Think I'll pass on that one.But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
Slightly favouring the Scirocco at the moment, although I need to try one with the remapped DSG. I also got distracted by how much mk2 TT you can get for the dosh. Is the 4WD system on these any better than the original?
xjay1337 said:
It's basically the same Haldex system.
Well, that's ruled that one out. Am I right in assuming that they are built on the same platform as the Golf/Scirocco, and thus the FWD 2.0 TFSI versions are effectively the same car as the mk5 Golf GTi? Coming in at 1280kg they are a lot lighter than I'd expected.TroubledSoul said:
I'd probably be looking at a Golf R or trying to scrape into an M135i with your criteria. The SMG E46 M3 isn't great in stop/start traffic I understand...
Budget is fixed, and neither of those come in under £12k with reasonable miles. Plus, the facelifted 1-series is absolutely hideous from the front.I had heard about the SMG not liking to 'creep' in traffic, and that it could contribute to significant clutch wear (which is fairly logical). Have you had any experience?
TroubledSoul said:
Unfortunately not. I've come close a couple of times to going for an E46 M3 but the only one I test drove had about 200k on the clock and was manual 
I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
RX8 is a useless 4spd slushbox, so definitely out of the conversation.I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
I think a DSG might well end up being the solution here, unless I can get a drive in an updated SMG car (to help me understand the limitations).
xjay1337 said:
C70R said:
xjay1337 said:
It's basically the same Haldex system.
Well, that's ruled that one out. Am I right in assuming that they are built on the same platform as the Golf/Scirocco, and thus the FWD 2.0 TFSI versions are effectively the same car as the mk5 Golf GTi? Coming in at 1280kg they are a lot lighter than I'd expected.I think Scirocco is around 1350kg.
Welcome to try mine out :-) Although it is a manwell.
I might have to get out and give one a try...
CABC said:
C70R said:
Hmm. The TT is winning me over, albeit with some (slight) reservations about image. The same weight as a GT86, the potential for an easy ~200bhp/tonne, the best choice of autobox, plenty of modcons.
I might have to get out and give one a try...
I might have to get out and give one a try...
try one. ok as transportation.
CABC said:
usual vag traits of front heavy, dull steering and uncommunicative chassis.
I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
TT weight distribution appears to be ~60/40, compared with the GT86's 53/47. Hardly as tragic as you'd think.I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
upsidedownmark said:
^^ This. Somewhat bemused that you're convinced you need 200bhp/tonne and lots of torque to have fun, but are quite happy to go for a nose heavy, front wheel drive / effectively front wheel drive contraption. I guess if acceleration is your thing there might be some mileage in that, but the track requirement would suggest some involvement / feedback would be a priority..
FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
I have two cars at the moment (three, in fact, but that's another story), but I'm moving to a very central bit of London shortly. Thus, one car is the only possible solution - hence this thread.FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
As for the need for something with a bit of 'oomph', my current track car is light, short-geared and ~140bhp/tonne, and getting passed by the world and their aunt on long straights is quite dull, particularly as I'd like to tackle Spa and the Ring. Can we agree that we're all different, and we have our own preferences for what constitutes 'fun'?
Overall, I take both of your negative points, but neither of you have suggested anything better to do all of this:
C70R said:
For ~£12k this car needs to:
Feel free to throw some ideas into the ring...- Sit in busy London traffic (hence the need for an auto)
- Carry two people, plus two small pet carriers and weekend bags (probably means two-seaters/convertibles are out)
- Sit in relative comfort at 80-85mph on the motorway
- Be fun to drive on track, while not chasing laptimes (4-5 times a year)
- Have a few creature comforts (decent stereo, aircon etc.)
I appreciate the input and don't wish to sound like a broken record here, but I'm keen not to dismiss the VAG stuff out of hand, particularly when its detractors actually haven't driven one on track (or the GT86 auto).
These lot seem to agree that the Scirocco is not a bad steer: http://www.rsrnurburg.com/car-rentals/volkswagen-s...
These lot seem to agree that the Scirocco is not a bad steer: http://www.rsrnurburg.com/car-rentals/volkswagen-s...
Big E 118 said:
I have a RS Clio EDC (the turbo/DCT one) as my daily car.
It has a great chassis (mine has the "cup chasis") and handles well, it's certainly softer than the older RS Clio's and has all the toys to make it a suitable commuter. It's quite fun on track.
I picked one up with just over 2k miles on it, a few months old for £13k (ex demo).
That's a great shout that I hadn't thought of at all - thank you.It has a great chassis (mine has the "cup chasis") and handles well, it's certainly softer than the older RS Clio's and has all the toys to make it a suitable commuter. It's quite fun on track.
I picked one up with just over 2k miles on it, a few months old for £13k (ex demo).
Just taken a look on AT, and I'm pretty impressed. However, the French really do have a monopoly on designing minging interiors - who on earth thought that a massive 'piano black' centre console was the right answer?
CedricN said:
How about giulietta qv, the later ones with the 4c engine also have the tct gearbox. Could be worth a try, loads of torque at least
Doesn't look like the budget gets me that far, sadly.Rob_F said:
I think you want a Leon Cupra 280 DSG
Ditto.Edited by C70R on Wednesday 10th January 21:50
51mes said:
Slightly off the wall, but different to most of the cars already listed - though maybe not as home on track as some
How about a Jag XK of some derivative XK-R's are in budget - with a 2+2 you shoudl have enough rear seat for pet carriers and you may even be able to find a convertible ...
S.
Eisch... I'd like to hope I could do better than a 1800kg convertible with a slushbox...How about a Jag XK of some derivative XK-R's are in budget - with a 2+2 you shoudl have enough rear seat for pet carriers and you may even be able to find a convertible ...
S.
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