Preparing a BMW 330ci for its first track day
Discussion
Morning chaps.
Looking for advice on getting an E46 ready for track.
Now I know the brakes aren't the best and there appears to be a shudder coming from the front brakes under harder braking, so my plan was to change the discs but upgrade to Ferrodo pads-I heard DS2500s were sufficient?
Do you think a strut bar/brace is warranted?
Any other advice is appreciated.
Tyre wise, it's currently fitted with Goodyear Eagle F1s
Looking for advice on getting an E46 ready for track.
Now I know the brakes aren't the best and there appears to be a shudder coming from the front brakes under harder braking, so my plan was to change the discs but upgrade to Ferrodo pads-I heard DS2500s were sufficient?
Do you think a strut bar/brace is warranted?
Any other advice is appreciated.
Tyre wise, it's currently fitted with Goodyear Eagle F1s
Right, new brake discs have been purchased (grooved only), along with redstuff EBC pads (apparently good for cars up to 250hp that are a bit lardy), and new brake fluid for track work, based on all your advice.
The first track session is only a half day affair due to work, so will consider upgrading pads and suspension if all goes well.
The first track session is only a half day affair due to work, so will consider upgrading pads and suspension if all goes well.
E-bmw said:
daveco said:
E-bmw said:
daveco said:
redstuff EBC pads based on all your advice.
Didn't see anyone advising them, just make sure you have another set to fit for the drive home......... Seriously!
Seriously, for your own peace of mind take a set of road pads with you as the best I ever had out of any EBC was lunchtime at a track day & there was less than 1mm left on them and that was a much lighter e36.
nickfrog said:
daveco said:
DS1.11s have been ordered for the front pads. Are DS2500s warranted for the rear or would Brembos do? Brembos are about twice as expensive compared to standard OEM but half as expensive as the DS2500s.
I would probably go OE and buy 2 sets for the price of x1 Brembo. I assume they are the basic Brembo (there are normally quite cheap on ECP).E-bmw said:
nickfrog said:
daveco said:
DS1.11s have been ordered for the front pads. Are DS2500s warranted for the rear or would Brembos do? Brembos are about twice as expensive compared to standard OEM but half as expensive as the DS2500s.
I would probably go OE and buy 2 sets for the price of x1 Brembo. I assume they are the basic Brembo (there are normally quite cheap on ECP).This thread has been an eye-opener!
I have gone for DS1.11s on the front pads and MTEC grooved discs, the latter of which I've heard mixed things about (after they arrived...) but we'll see.
This is a weekend car so I have looked into changing the diff to a 3.64 ratio but they're expensive and I think the car idles at over 2k rpm? And someone online has gone to the trouble of weighing everything they've taken out of the car. The spare tyre, tools, boot floor all come to about 25kg which I doubt would be noticed on track but opinions on this would be good to hear as that is one aspect of the car that I would like to improve on (its weight).
On a separate note;-
I was reading some old EVO magazines and in issue 71 an E46 330ci with the SMG box ran a 1.34 at Bedford Autodrome with the mag saying it would be a 1.33 with the manual box...that means the relatively lardy 330ci is about seven seconds quicker around Bedford than a Mk V Golf GTI, and about a second slower than a 350Z. That doesn't make sense to me considering the 1500+kg weight, long gearing and moderate power advantage.
I have gone for DS1.11s on the front pads and MTEC grooved discs, the latter of which I've heard mixed things about (after they arrived...) but we'll see.
This is a weekend car so I have looked into changing the diff to a 3.64 ratio but they're expensive and I think the car idles at over 2k rpm? And someone online has gone to the trouble of weighing everything they've taken out of the car. The spare tyre, tools, boot floor all come to about 25kg which I doubt would be noticed on track but opinions on this would be good to hear as that is one aspect of the car that I would like to improve on (its weight).
On a separate note;-
I was reading some old EVO magazines and in issue 71 an E46 330ci with the SMG box ran a 1.34 at Bedford Autodrome with the mag saying it would be a 1.33 with the manual box...that means the relatively lardy 330ci is about seven seconds quicker around Bedford than a Mk V Golf GTI, and about a second slower than a 350Z. That doesn't make sense to me considering the 1500+kg weight, long gearing and moderate power advantage.
Right, the new discs and brake pads have been fitted.
Re the bedding in process, any advice? I've been told to brake hard from 50mph or so down to about 5mph about twenty times in a row - is this correct?
As previously mentioned they are Ferodo DS1.11s and normal grooved mtec discs.
Actually found some info on their site
"The aim is to bring the pads to full race temperatures, but slowly (too quick bedding results in glazing). This is done by a series of laps where full speeds may be attained but lighter braking pressures are used (i.e. the driver applies the brakes earlier). It is important that the pads are allowed to cool after the bedding process before racing. Ideally the pads will arrive at temperatures in excess of 500°C during the bedding. Pads smoking during the cool-down is not a cause for concern. Specifically for DS1.11 and DSUNO temperatures should arrive at between 500°C and 700°C (as an indication: green and orange thermal paints applied to discs to turn white completely).
Perform at least 15 trial brake applications, initially with reduced pressures (50% of the normal that might be used for that same brake application were it to occur under race conditions) building up to full decelerations after the 15 applications. To shorten the procedure applications can be made along the straights as well as at corners.
On completion of the trial applications, return to the pit lane. Inspect the surface of the brake pads from the two wheels that have been working the hardest. There should be evidence of contact over the full pad area, but without glazing. The pads are now ready to race. Whilst it is recommended that pads are inspected after bedding, if time does not allow this and paragraph 1 has been carried out appropriately, so long as a short period of time has elapsed to allow the brake system to cool (ideally to below 100°C - this might take in excess of five minutes), the pads will be ready to race."
So it appears that some gentle braking (50%) from relatively high speed about 15 times, then building up to full braking after the 15 gentle attempts if I read that correctly?
Re the bedding in process, any advice? I've been told to brake hard from 50mph or so down to about 5mph about twenty times in a row - is this correct?
As previously mentioned they are Ferodo DS1.11s and normal grooved mtec discs.
Actually found some info on their site
"The aim is to bring the pads to full race temperatures, but slowly (too quick bedding results in glazing). This is done by a series of laps where full speeds may be attained but lighter braking pressures are used (i.e. the driver applies the brakes earlier). It is important that the pads are allowed to cool after the bedding process before racing. Ideally the pads will arrive at temperatures in excess of 500°C during the bedding. Pads smoking during the cool-down is not a cause for concern. Specifically for DS1.11 and DSUNO temperatures should arrive at between 500°C and 700°C (as an indication: green and orange thermal paints applied to discs to turn white completely).
Perform at least 15 trial brake applications, initially with reduced pressures (50% of the normal that might be used for that same brake application were it to occur under race conditions) building up to full decelerations after the 15 applications. To shorten the procedure applications can be made along the straights as well as at corners.
On completion of the trial applications, return to the pit lane. Inspect the surface of the brake pads from the two wheels that have been working the hardest. There should be evidence of contact over the full pad area, but without glazing. The pads are now ready to race. Whilst it is recommended that pads are inspected after bedding, if time does not allow this and paragraph 1 has been carried out appropriately, so long as a short period of time has elapsed to allow the brake system to cool (ideally to below 100°C - this might take in excess of five minutes), the pads will be ready to race."
So it appears that some gentle braking (50%) from relatively high speed about 15 times, then building up to full braking after the 15 gentle attempts if I read that correctly?
Edited by daveco on Thursday 12th July 10:53
Thanks for all the extra info, 330ti I had no idea you could fit the auto diff!
I went out to bed the brakes last night.
I did 15 brake applications at about 50% from 45mph to 10mph and then waited a couple of minutes driving at 60-70mph to do some high speed decelerations at 75-90% application. A few observations;
-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.
I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
I went out to bed the brakes last night.
I did 15 brake applications at about 50% from 45mph to 10mph and then waited a couple of minutes driving at 60-70mph to do some high speed decelerations at 75-90% application. A few observations;
-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.
I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
E-bmw said:
daveco said:
-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.
I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
The blue tint is quite normal as the brake discs get hot & will (as you say) quickly disappear after a couple of "normal" brake applications.-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.
I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
They do squeal & the lighter you brake the more evident it is.
The VERY initial bit is pretty much the same (actually slightly better, but not a lot) as good OE pads, but also as you have found out the BIG advantage is that they quite simply DO NOT fade and with good fresh fluid they last MUCH better on track.
Yes, they are obviously better when warm as per the torque curves I put up and because they are even better when warm you do soon get used to it & notice the difference more when they cool than when they heat up.
Your tyres will be fine for the moment, just keep an eye on pressures on track, they WILL rise dramatically & need to be dropped until they stabilise, then obviously topped up for the home leg of the day.
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