Company being taken over

[J4CKO]

I work in IT for a large company that is being taken over due to a quirk of share prices by a smaller one. I am the lead for the Database team, we provision, tune, back up and fix the companies Oracle and SQL Servers globally. I seem to be well regarded and valued having been round databases for years, but no man is an island or irreplaceable.

So, we will be a new company very soon, the new company is fond of outsourcing IT to a third party. I need to know what my position is and what they can do legally, my possibilities are,

Made Redundant - get a few quid (not that much but would keep us for a few months) , get another job, market is fairly buoyant

Find another job and leave, miss out on the few quid, quite like it here so may as well stick it out and wait

Stay with the new company

Get Tupe'd across to the Outsourcer.


In the two latter scenarios, our terms and conditions are protected for one year, so about this time next year they get to renegotiate my contract, that is the bit I am concerned about, what can they negotiate ? is it basically pay and holidays, cant they say you were on this much, you are now on half of that ?

Can they effectively make it difficult to stay as you have lost a load of salary so you have to leave and get something somewhere else and then they dont have to pay you redundancy ?

Obviously its a fluid situation and will use my skills, guile, charm and animal magnetism to ingratiate and make myself invaluable in the meantime but I want to be prepared for the various eventualities.

[J4CKO]

Countdown said:

I'd go with this.

J4CKO said:

Made Redundant - get a few quid (not that much but would keep us for a few months) , get another job, market is fairly buoyant

As a regular Oracle user IME decent Oracle DBAs are like gold dust and quite rare or expensive.

Yeah, trouble is with being the lead and having a stellar Oracle DBA on the team I am comparatively rusty, I am qualified to OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) level but been out of it quite a while hands on wise, still do some but couldn't easily go in as an Oracle DBA without a bit of a refresher, it all comes back so perhaps my plan would be to just get back up to speed. Am more current on SQL Server.

[J4CKO]

xjay1337 said:

I'd ride it out, see what happens. Usually senior people are not let go. Just the minions.

Yeah, current plan, am not that senior, team lead, kind of in the middle ground between grunt and management, neither one nor the other.

[J4CKO]

andburg said:

https://www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/transfers-o...

AFAIK TUPE protection is not limited to 1 year. Your "new" employer would need to consult with you on any changes and both parties would need to agree to any changes.

I've been outsourced, agreed measures that meant i gained in some areas but lost in others where my terms could not be met and then tupe'd back as an insource with better terms than I left with.
If the company decide to outsource they may wish to reduce numbers at that point and offer voluntary redundancy.

The other way to look at this would be that if you get outsourced your value and further career prospects may actually increase.

Yeah, its not all fear on my part, have a lot to offer and it pays not to forget that they may actually want me and see me as an asset and not a burden to be got rid of !

[J4CKO]

Breadvan72 said:

The one year myth is a myth.

In what way ? in that they can do what they want or that they cant regardless of time since the acquisition ?

They have said our T's and C's will be protected for a year, I take that as they wont try to drop our salaries for 12 months, then they will probably try but it should be a consultation, not them unilaterally changing anything, which would be a breach of contract.

It may well be fine but I want to be 100 percent ready in case of any changes being made and know my legal standpoint, employers and their HR depts can make stuff seem official when it is actually illegal, seen it before, it doesnt mean that if it is on headed paper and comes from a senior manager that it is any more valid than me writing some nonsense on a post it note.

Not going to be a dick about it and am looking on this change as positive but I dont intend to let myself be manipulated or coerced into something I dont want to happen.

[J4CKO]

omniflow said:

Whilst companies are supposed to follow the law in these cases, many of them don't. That's why people sign compromise agreements, or whatever the latest name for them is. Statutory redundancy is a pitiful sum. What they do try to do is dress everything up so that it looks like they've followed the rules, but they never do.

Apparently redundancy terms set some kind of precedent, so if the company was paying 1 month per year of service 11 months ago when they last made a bunch of people redundant, then they have to pay that to the next lot. However, I have definitely seen redundancy terms change over time, so that might just be a myth.

Look after yourself and your own interests. Keep your ear to the ground. Try to figure out the culture of the new combined firm. I've been through several acquisitions on both sides of the deal, and the acquiring company's IT team isn't always the one that ends up running the show, particularly in a global environment. You'll know when it's time to jump ship, and if they're taking requests for voluntary redundancy at that time then all the better.

Then, go contracting.

Cheers, I ended up here as a contractor ten years ago, liked it and got offered a decent deal to stay as a permie.

The acquiring company is smaller and anecdotally less advanced IT wise, so they seem to be open to adopting our methods, I mean, why wouldnt you if its the best way to do things ? early days, for me its whether they outsource the DB provision, the rank and file daily DB tasks and problem resolution is one thing but there is other stuff around strategy, consolidation, adopting cloud offerings, licensing etc that doesnt really lend itself to outsourcing, also, I am SC cleared and occasionally have to work on secure environments so that will need to be covered, that really doesnt fit with an outsourcing model easily.

[J4CKO]

Breadvan72 said:

This change could be a positive opportunity for you, especially if you can lead a charge towards getting more secret squirrel work.

Yeah, however, I do like it where I am, the advantages are it doesnt pay too badly, it is nearby, can work from home and a good bunch of people, also I feel appreciated.

So, if I have to jump ship, I will but currently feel like I want to see how things pan out and am pretty positive and I am a great believer that you make your own luck to a certain extent, get in, see how the land lies and make myself indispensable. The redundancy wouldnt be huge but I would be loathe to jump ship without it, plus there is that feeling that if you leave and hate the next job you would regret moving, but if you have to go then it isnt so bad with regards to self recriminations !

In the meantime, be ready for an exit, for me that is looking at the market and seeing what skills are in demand DB wise, where the work is and keeping/getting myself current, also, stuff like keeping fit and trim, having a CV ready, having a decent suit, reviewing interview skills, it all counts, I find it is easy to get complacent.

I suspect if I was made redundant on Monday, I could have a job by the end of the week, that isnt big headedness, it is just the market is fairly good, its just whether its a good gig that is comparable salary wise and doesn't involve two hours in the car each end of the day, better to hold on and get the right one.

[J4CKO]

omniflow said:

Breadvan72 said:

Doing deals to buy out rights is following the law, not breaking it.

That was the point that I was trying to make. Companies pay enhanced redundancy to "give themselves more flexibility"

Money talks, if I get offered a decent wedge you won't see me for dust, but the statutory redundancy plus notice they offer isnt exactly a huge sum, a bit of breathing space at best.

[J4CKO]

elanfan said:

Also use the intervening period to get back on the tools and reaquaint yourself with the stuff you're rusty on. You might find things move slowly whilst they deal with the more important tasks of intergrating the two organisations. Could easily be a year before they get around to you.

Absolutely, databases are important but the priorities are networks, mail, storage, licensing, desktop etc etc.

[J4CKO]

Yipper said:

The academic research for decades has consistently shown that 50-90% of mergers and acquisitions fail...

Companies struggle to mash their culture, structure and tech.

Thus, it is highly likely something will go wrong and there will be disruption to your company and / or your role in the next 3 to 24 months.

So, it makes sense to "prepare for the the worst".

Get your CV and LinkedIn profile bang uptodate, remove any dodgy identifiable posts on Facebook etc., and start reaching out to various recruitment sites or recruiting firms, like Indeed, Agency Central, etc.

Don't hang about. The new owners won't hang about to play with their new toy.

Already been through a few, and divestitures, we are fairly adept at it as an organisation. They are always looking for cost savings but sometimes, you need to spend upfront to save money.

Going to look at the job market and see where the money is and pitch myself towards that.

The way I see it, I am there until I am not, if I get made redundant I will have some time to work on getting something but will do so in the meantime.

I dont do any dodgy posts on FB so that should be fine, I tend to keep it to trivial and non contentious.

Quite happy to stay, am hoping that is what happens, I figure they still need someone to do the work I do.

[J4CKO]

I think I would get 15/16 grand redundancy in terns SRP and 3 months pay in lieu of notice, have a few weeks off, go to the gym, do some jobs, take stock and bone up on skill sets, then get applying, no news yet.

[J4CKO]

Got told today that the bulk of IT staff will be made redundant, whole lot is being outsourced to IBM globally, no Tupe, either you get kept on in a small number of remaining positions or you get made redundant.

Oracle Support was listed as being in house, I am not sure whether than involves me or not, assuming not.

Can they just do that and make everyone redundant like that ?

[J4CKO]

garythesign said:

Hughesie said:

Yup, as long as they follow the redundancy process and you are not in scope for TUPE.

Sorry to read this OP

I have read a lot of your comments on various threads and you sound like one of the good guys.

Hope things work out for you

Cheers Gary, appreciate that sentiment !

[J4CKO]

xjay1337 said:

J4CKO said:

Got told today that the bulk of IT staff will be made redundant, whole lot is being outsourced to IBM globally, no Tupe, either you get kept on in a small number of remaining positions or you get made redundant.

Oracle Support was listed as being in house, I am not sure whether than involves me or not, assuming not.

Can they just do that and make everyone redundant like that ?

Take the redundacy and find a new job.
Depending on how many people they are making redudnant or company size dictates the time they have to complete consultations by.

So you should know. That way you are free to start a new job outside of your notice period. Free money and straight "back" into work ;-)

Cheers Xjay, my thoughts, possibility I may be kept on but not at all sure, wont be a massive amount in cash but would buy a fairly decent 135i

Going to use the next two months to brush up on my Oracle skills and get my CV out there, surprising how comfortable I am with it, was reading about a friend from school dealing with cancer and getting made redundant doesnt seem so bad any more, I am looking it as an opportunity as has got a bit stagnant there.

Got to be positive, got to have the mindset that somewhere I am the answer to some IT managers prayers for personable, reliable SQL/Oracle Senior DBA with a sense of humour.

[J4CKO]

Jockman said:

Did the Acquirer buy the shares or the assets of your company?

Not sure, shares I guess, does it make a difference ?

[J4CKO]

PaulV said:

I'm not going to answer that question
Mark...... :-)
Good try.
Brave enough to ask about who gets the bonus?

Edited by PaulV on Thursday 25th January 11:42

Ahhh, someone else on that call I see,

Had to be said,

For the rest, in a call about people losing their jobs by means of redundancy, when the HR person was asked whether the transfer was legal, the HR person said that the jobs were being transferred to India and that we were all welcome to apply and transfer to India.

I asked if it was appropriate to make facetious comments like that given the situation.

I am comfortable with the situation, they have to do what they have to do but I am not being talked to like that, it was rude, insensitive and disrespectful, perhaps if she had just said "Sorry, that came out a bit wrong" it would have all been good.


Which bonus ?

Edited by J4CKO on Thursday 25th January 12:17

[J4CKO]

Vaud said:

J4CKO said:

Cheers Xjay, my thoughts, possibility I may be kept on but not at all sure, wont be a massive amount in cash but would buy a fairly decent 135i

Going to use the next two months to brush up on my Oracle skills and get my CV out there, surprising how comfortable I am with it, was reading about a friend from school dealing with cancer and getting made redundant doesnt seem so bad any more, I am looking it as an opportunity as has got a bit stagnant there.

Got to be positive, got to have the mindset that somewhere I am the answer to some IT managers prayers for personable, reliable SQL/Oracle Senior DBA with a sense of humour.

It's a fairly buoyant market. Make sure you are up to speed with Oracle Cloud as a lot of customers are being "forced" on to it...

Yeah, Oracle are really keen on getting everyone migrated, no chance of people fiddling them on licensing and the meter is always running, we found that a lot of it wasnt really ready.

Edited by J4CKO on Thursday 25th January 12:10

[J4CKO]

Looks like I am through the door, got a telephone interview on Friday, but not sure when they will actually let us go which is awkward.

[J4CKO]

xjay1337 said:

That's a good start, well done

Your existing company should be providing clear timescales for you.

They sort of are but its such a big undertaking it will take some sorting out, all I can do is suggest a date, was on three months notice anyway, so am fairly sure will be earlier.

[J4CKO]

Was one of eight interviewed for a position, similar role, not too far away and seems a decent sort of company to work for and have got to the second interview with one other guy, had another telephone interview with a different company and that went well, get the feedback on Monday and am fairly confident they will want me to come in to meet them in person.

Just need the current company to decide what they are doing, going to be peed off if they decide I have to work three months notice after two months of "consultation", they have decided they dont need us any more but want to do a "Knowledge Transfer" to the folk in India, of course it is simple to impart ten years of your working life to a pool of hastily recruited people 3000 plus miles away who dont speak English as a first language.