E61 M5, 'Red Cog' with no symptoms.
Discussion
On top of my tailgate wiring issue, which will be resolved by the stealer on the 4th Jan (glass opening switch now doesnt work at all) ive had the 'Red Cog of Death' come up on the dash today. The strange thing is that there were no symptoms or reductions in performance that i could see / feel.
It was a cold night last night and as has occured after previous cold nights or heavy frosts the gear changes have been a little slow for the first half a mile or so. According to other owners the sluggish changes when cold are fairly common so long as they dont feel abrupt. My 'Red Cog' appeared as i changed from 1st to 2nd coming out of my street. I'd already gone from Reverse to 1st so it wasnt the first change of the journey.
The warning stayed on the dash for 15 seconds or so then disappeared. I checked the control messages afew minutes later and there was a nice, green OK - No Faults indicator there. As i said, there was no loss of performance, the gear changes were smooth in all settings and M mode was as brutal as always.
I thought the E61 and all 65 plate onward E60's were more resilient. Ive had no 'Orange Cog' either which surely would be the usual progression. Any chance this could be related to my wiring issue or maybe a software fault?
Eddie
It was a cold night last night and as has occured after previous cold nights or heavy frosts the gear changes have been a little slow for the first half a mile or so. According to other owners the sluggish changes when cold are fairly common so long as they dont feel abrupt. My 'Red Cog' appeared as i changed from 1st to 2nd coming out of my street. I'd already gone from Reverse to 1st so it wasnt the first change of the journey.
The warning stayed on the dash for 15 seconds or so then disappeared. I checked the control messages afew minutes later and there was a nice, green OK - No Faults indicator there. As i said, there was no loss of performance, the gear changes were smooth in all settings and M mode was as brutal as always.
I thought the E61 and all 65 plate onward E60's were more resilient. Ive had no 'Orange Cog' either which surely would be the usual progression. Any chance this could be related to my wiring issue or maybe a software fault?
Eddie
Edited by ecain63 on Sunday 26th December 16:36
A little more research last night and today has revealled a link between the 'excessive battery drain' message ive been suffering (caused by my tailgate wiring problem) and spurious 'Red Cog' faults. I had no Red Cog today despite my fiddling and testing of every setting. The tailgate glass switch is completely inoperable however, but it did open itself a couple of times in the supermarket car park today. Im thinking this is the root of my problems. 4th of Jan is a bloody long way away.
robsti said:
By next Xmas you will be having your Xmas dinner with a new best friend, BMW warranty manager! 
My experience with Warranty and Service managers is already legendary. When i had my RS6 the Audi Warranty and Servise manager was only interested in attending my funeral by the time i'd finished with him. I always got my car fixed though, whether it was by Audi or via a 3rd party instructing Audi on my behalf. The BMW service team at my local stealer have been thoroughly introduced to my ways and things seem to be working so here's hoping. Edited by robsti on Monday 27th December 14:32
It not the faults that annoy me though, its the whole experience of driving a car that should be perfect, but in reality worries the life out of you on a daily basis. I dont think that there is a performance family car that is any different so its best to just accept the hastles and make sure the warranty is sound. If only the loan cars were a direct comaprison, then the repair period might also be less stressful. A Mini One just doesnt cut it!!
Ive been topping up the m5board with feedback on my car issues but had forgotten there were some on here who were interested in the causes and cures. I do apologise. So, here's how it went.
On my second planned visit regarding the wiring and tailgate problem i took a few minutes to have a chat with the BMW tech and explain what info i had unearthed in my christmas search for answers. I mentioned the design flaws regarding the hinges and how tight the wiring is that runs through them.
After 1 1/2 hours i got a phone call from the service manager confirming that there were 2 broken wires within the far right hand router that runs between the roof and the tailgate. He also informed me that the other 3 wiring routes were worn and would require replacing. So, new looms ordered and an estimated return date of the following day. Excellent.
The following afternoon i got a call to say the job was done and i could collect the car when i was ready. The warranty covered any expense but the service manager did inform me that the invoice was for an eye watering amount. I turned up at the workshop and collected my keys.
Testing the tailgate glass switch proved the wiring was ok. The annoying 'battery drain' warning was gone also and the car started much quicker than it had done previously. On driving it the gearchanges were much quicker and far more positive so the SMG pump was obviously getting all the juice it needed.
The service manager explained to me before i left that they could not find any sign of the Red Cog warning code on either the key fob or via the ODB port so put it down to computer confusion at low current. He did however show me codes that proved the SMG wasnt getting the required current, thus making the shifts slower and less positive.
So, i think we can assume that the wiring was the problem. We can also conclude that these cars are far too complicated and twitchy about their living conditions. Who would have guessed the tailgate wiring could mess up the operation of a gear box? I just hope the poor shifts didnt put any excess stress on the clutch or reduce its life span.
Anyway, things are looking good now and im enjoying having the beast back on the road and making the most of a worry free ownership before the next thing crops up.
Eddie
On my second planned visit regarding the wiring and tailgate problem i took a few minutes to have a chat with the BMW tech and explain what info i had unearthed in my christmas search for answers. I mentioned the design flaws regarding the hinges and how tight the wiring is that runs through them.
After 1 1/2 hours i got a phone call from the service manager confirming that there were 2 broken wires within the far right hand router that runs between the roof and the tailgate. He also informed me that the other 3 wiring routes were worn and would require replacing. So, new looms ordered and an estimated return date of the following day. Excellent.
The following afternoon i got a call to say the job was done and i could collect the car when i was ready. The warranty covered any expense but the service manager did inform me that the invoice was for an eye watering amount. I turned up at the workshop and collected my keys.
Testing the tailgate glass switch proved the wiring was ok. The annoying 'battery drain' warning was gone also and the car started much quicker than it had done previously. On driving it the gearchanges were much quicker and far more positive so the SMG pump was obviously getting all the juice it needed.
The service manager explained to me before i left that they could not find any sign of the Red Cog warning code on either the key fob or via the ODB port so put it down to computer confusion at low current. He did however show me codes that proved the SMG wasnt getting the required current, thus making the shifts slower and less positive.
So, i think we can assume that the wiring was the problem. We can also conclude that these cars are far too complicated and twitchy about their living conditions. Who would have guessed the tailgate wiring could mess up the operation of a gear box? I just hope the poor shifts didnt put any excess stress on the clutch or reduce its life span.
Anyway, things are looking good now and im enjoying having the beast back on the road and making the most of a worry free ownership before the next thing crops up.
Eddie
Toilet Duck said:
ecain63 said:
The warranty covered any expense but the service manager did inform me that the invoice was for an eye watering amount.
Out of curiosity, what was the cost he quoted?Cheburator mk2 said:
ecain63 said:
I don't get a copy of the invoice til this tuesday but the parts were circa £800 + vat, and then 5 1/2hrs labour at £115hr + vat. About £1700 all in.
Funny how some people think they can buy a "cheap" E60/E61 M5 and have a fighting fund for when things go wrong instead of having a proper warrantyisee said:
Hi Eddie, is it an Interlagos blue one with "VFE" in the reg plate?
Because if it is, I am glad to know I made the right choice binning it off before any more things went wrong then.
Sorry to hear you are having a mare mate.
No mine is a Saphire black one. The thing is that it wasn't a big problem, just an expensive and annoying one.Because if it is, I am glad to know I made the right choice binning it off before any more things went wrong then.
Sorry to hear you are having a mare mate.
Skrambles said:
ecain63 said:
I think this is gonna be the problem when the E60's get down to £15k in a year or so. Ford Focus priced car with Ferrari bills. I bet most of the cheap ones won't be eligible for BMW warranty either. Sod that for a game of risk.
What are the criteria for the warranty? I can't imagine having an m5 without one.I still reckon the later model M5's (06 on) are pretty bomb proof, but its the common niggles such as wiring, bushes, rods etc that will shock even the deepest pocket. This isn't an Aldi car, this is an M&S car! In fact its a Harrods car!
Skrambles said:
ecain63 said:
Skrambles said:
ecain63 said:
I think this is gonna be the problem when the E60's get down to £15k in a year or so. Ford Focus priced car with Ferrari bills. I bet most of the cheap ones won't be eligible for BMW warranty either. Sod that for a game of risk.
What are the criteria for the warranty? I can't imagine having an m5 without one.I still reckon the later model M5's (06 on) are pretty bomb proof, but its the common niggles such as wiring, bushes, rods etc that will shock even the deepest pocket. This isn't an Aldi car, this is an M&S car! In fact its a Harrods car!
Glad you haven't lost the faith! It's a truly awesome car.
All of these cars have expensive lives and niggles. The C5 RS6 had a chocolate gearbox that many owners could have changed twice during ownership at £7k a pop. Alternators and intercoolers are common faults with bills of over £2k for these repairs. The E63 and many other merc models have loads of sensor and electrical issues. Differentials are also an up and coming issue and are not a cheap affair. The M5 might have vanos problems on earlier cars and SMG faults on even older ones but these are part and parcel of owning a cutting edge car. It wasnt designed to be kind to your health.
If you want 'infallibly reliable' and 'cheap to run' you dont buy an M5. You dont even buy a BMW. Its not a marque for the penniless or a car for those who have more important things to pour money into. People that buy into the M5 name should be aware of this but sadly it attracts the broader spectrum of society. Car enthusiasts were its target audience when new and even now the price has come down they are still the target audience. But as we are now in the 'mondeo money' zone it will attract the 'ive managed to scrape a £20k loan to spend on a decent car and i like the image of the M5' crowd. What this crowd forgets is that this £20k car used to be £70k and as much as they might wish it, the servicing / maintenance costs havnt gone down in accordance with the value. Thats fine if the owner can afford it and has got a warranty but this is often not the case with the higher mileage, older models (which incidentaly are the ones with the expensive issues). Joe Bloggs will buy these examples and as a result will shaft the rest of us at resale. When it comes to its first service, insurance renewal or repair the owner cant stomach the cost and the £20k car becomes an £18k car with an additional 10k on the clock and work needing done. Q? Who buys it next? A! Joe Bloggs No.2. More hard mileage to impress his mates, less attention to the service indicators and hey presto another price drop. And so on.
Off that little rant. Yes this is a fantastic car, but it needs a BMW warranty. Get that right and so long as your willing to prop up the government with fuel duty and BMW with labour rates you'll have a blast. Get them while they are HOT!
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