V8 Chevy Rebuild

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I have recently purchased a 1965 race car fitted with a Chevy 4.5 small block. Unfortunately thar car lost it's original engine many moons ago and after a spell when it ran with a Lotus twin-cam the previous owner purchased a replacement V8, which is also 1965. Apparently this V8 came from a pick-up and was in running order at the point it was purchased, other than that nothing is known about this engine and it has not been run in this car. The car needs a full restoration, which I will do with a view to being ready to race it in spring 24. I already own, and race, the same model, a car I restored in 2019/20 and which has a completely different, 4 pot, engine.

I'm looking for recommendations as to who I should refer to to strip & rebuild this engine. There is a budget here, I'm not looking for ultimate HP, just a reliable race suitable spec. Originality is important, I can upgrade to electronic ignition but it needs to run on its carb. I live near Bristol, so local would be handy, I also travel a lot, Midlands & North West.

I will be starting a thread shortly to track progress on the restoration.

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Thanks for the suggestions, I will give Peter Knight a call.

It is a circuit car.

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aeropilot said:

some bloke said:

aeropilot said:

May not be a truck engine then....?

They were all 2-bbl low compression 'standard' heads.

The casting numbers should tell what it was originally. Should help to find whether it means it has a cast or forged crank?

Could be a complete bitza though, and likely as I said, you'll be throwing a lot of the bits away.

Yes, could be a complete bitsa. I think the 283 blocks are getting tricky to find now.

Yep. Well good ones are.
Its why I didn't bother when found out the block on mine was cracked after sitting outside for decades with no heads on one side and no intake fitted.
It was 'only' a '67 283 out of a truck (last year of the 283) according to the casting numbers, and as much as I would have liked a vintage 283, it was simply cheaper to buy a crate motor than try and find another good 283 from UK or from USA....and still end up costing twice as much as a crate motor.
As it turned out many years later was talking to an old mate who I don't see that often and he said, I've got my original '59 283 that he pulled from his El Camino sitting under bench in garage, you could have had that.........grrrrrrr!
But, that's now likely finding a home in a '32 5 window that has just been recently acquired by another mate of his.

Apologies for the delayed reply. The car is in a workshop having its cage fitted. I will get it back next week and have a good hunt for numbers. In the meantime a few more pictures, any extra clues?

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I have an engine number in the vehicle file which I have not checked against the engine. It is VO821UFJ7CJ501965

I used a de-coding web site and if I figured it out correctly it is a low horse power motor from a truck.

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aeropilot said:

Yep, maybe the only part of the original truck motor, is in fact the block..... i.e it was just a replacement for a trashed earlier block.

I would guess for racing purposes, that maybe the case, as a 350ci engine maybe outside the regs?
Trouble is how do you prove that, if some looks at the numbers and moans that you are running a bigger engine than allowed?

Given that this is a unique car I won't be able to get FIA papers for it, this is actually a blessing as it leaves me with a relatively free hand. I have spoken with the organiser of the series I'm likely to race it in and he is pretty relaxed about the engine spec as long as I keep it in period. As such I want to keep steel heads and carb, other than that I can do much as I wish.

I would like to be in the 300 - 350 hp range, I need to be sensible with the budget and in an 800 kilo car any more hp is unlikely to translate into substantially improved times and not least as it will be restricted to driver ability.

I have spoken to a few builders, the guys building engines high spec engines for exotic and valuable historic race cars are out of my league. I have also spoken to a chat who seems to be more on my wavelength, at the moment my plan is to get the engine to him, let him strip it and provide recommendations and estimate.

The world of V8's is completely new to me and I appreciate all the advice.

By the way, I'm looking for a pair of rams horn manifolds, there are no manifolds fitted and very little room. I have spent some time looking through Google images and it looks to me that these might be the best option in confined space. They also offer the advantage of looking suitably period. Does anyone have a pair on the shelf that they might be willing to sell or indeed just let me borrow to see if they fit?

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ZedLeg said:

Keep it stiff said:

aeropilot said:

Yep, maybe the only part of the original truck motor, is in fact the block..... i.e it was just a replacement for a trashed earlier block.

I would guess for racing purposes, that maybe the case, as a 350ci engine maybe outside the regs?
Trouble is how do you prove that, if some looks at the numbers and moans that you are running a bigger engine than allowed?

Given that this is a unique car I won't be able to get FIA papers for it, this is actually a blessing as it leaves me with a relatively free hand. I have spoken with the organiser of the series I'm likely to race it in and he is pretty relaxed about the engine spec as long as I keep it in period. As such I want to keep steel heads and carb, other than that I can do much as I wish.

I would like to be in the 300 - 350 hp range, I need to be sensible with the budget and in an 800 kilo car any more hp is unlikely to translate into substantially improved times and not least as it will be restricted to driver ability.

I have spoken to a few builders, the guys building engines high spec engines for exotic and valuable historic race cars are out of my league. I have also spoken to a chat who seems to be more on my wavelength, at the moment my plan is to get the engine to him, let him strip it and provide recommendations and estimate.

The world of V8's is completely new to me and I appreciate all the advice.

By the way, I'm looking for a pair of rams horn manifolds, there are no manifolds fitted and very little room. I have spent some time looking through Google images and it looks to me that these might be the best option in confined space. They also offer the advantage of looking suitably period. Does anyone have a pair on the shelf that they might be willing to sell or indeed just let me borrow to see if they fit?

If there are no rules around engine size I'd be looking for a 350 out of a car, rather than sink money into a rebuild on a questionable engine. They'll reliably make that power all day long.

There are no rules on engine size. One of the guys I spoke to suggested I bin the existing and just buy a 350 crate motor with 300+ out of the box. I could do that however if it is viable to develop the existing I would prefer that route. Thanks for the suggestion on the manifolds, I will follow that up.

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some bloke said:

It also depends on how the engine runs atm - if it has good compression all round, no blue smoke and shuts off quickly (indicating still tight in the bores) it might be worth running a season and getting to grips with it, then building a screamer. Keep us posted.

PS, get a copy of this or similar:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Max-Performance-Blo...
So you have a bit of understanding of these engines. A lot of the info applies to junkyard blocks and dealer parts which we don't get so much here but there will be some relevant info in amongst all that.

I will order that book, thanks for the suggestion.

As I have all of this year to get the car race ready, I would rather go down the route of knowing I have a proven/decent spec engine from the start rather than running the car next year for a trial period with a risk of downtime mid season.

The car will go to a GRP specialist next month, it needs taking back to gel coat, and after that for paint. I will remove the engine before it goes and as there will be plenty of other stuff to be getting on with when the car gets back to me refitting the engine will be a job for the autumn.

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A few more pictures. I offered up Rams Horn manifolds, no chance of getting them on without modifications to inner panels.

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some bloke said:

There's a funny thing - the rear bell block casting number indicates:

3849852 57-66 283 car & Truck 2-bolt, from this site:

http://outintheshop.com/faq/casting/castings2.html

Did you get a number stamped on the front RH pad on the block, ie, does it match the one off the paperwork you posted earlier?

I agree, that number on the block does not seem to relate to the number I posted previously, which was on the paperwork. I have hunted high and low but I can't see any other ID numbers. The only question that matters really is is this engine suitable for rebuild to produce 300 - 350. I'm tied up with other things over the next few weeks, as soon as I get a clear weekend I will be taking it out of the car.

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some bloke said:

The casting number on the back of the block - your one is 3849852 - tells you a few clues about when the block was made and what vehicle it may have been in. (I seem to remember early 283 blocks were good candidates for punching out to a 4" bore as they had thicker walls) The engine number is stamped on the pad on the front of the engine, left side, as you look at the car from the front. It will be something like the one from your paperwork - VO821UFJ7CJ501965 - but may have been machined off. You may have to scrape the paint off here:


to see if there's a stamped number. That will partly match the VIN of the car it came from. Otherwise you may just have to dismantle it, measure bore and stroke etc and see what you have.

Keep us posted.

I wire brushed the paint from the area you suggested and it revealed the letter F. No numbers or other letters. Perhaps this was a crate engine and as part of the reprocessing the original block ID was ground off. Anyway, it matters not at this stage, the mystery will need to wait until the strip down.

I'm grateful for your, and other responses, much appreciated. I will certainly keep you updated.

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It is a while since I updated. The car has been away for body restoration. I now need to turn my attention to the motor. The previous owner had fabricated engine mounts however he had put the engine so far back that there was no room to get the manifolds on. I will pull it forward, and perhaps lower, to see how I can overcome this. I have a pair of rams-horn and a tubular pair, I'm not sure either will fit and in which case I will need to get something custom-made. Pulling the engine forward will give me a potential clash of steering column and pump/bottom hose which I will also need to figure out. I will save a bit of space fitting single-belt pulleys.

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Progress over the weekend. I cut away part of the inner footwells on both sides, I can reinstate later as removable hatches. With the engine on the crane, and the box supported by a trolley jack, I was able to pass the rams horns through the newly cut apertures and fit them. The alternative tubular manifolds had no chance. I then spent ages pulling the engine backwards and forwards, side to side and up and down trying to find the best position. If I retain the rams horns I will need to get the outlets chopped and adapted on both sides, the near side clashes with the slave cylinder and the offside with the chassis. The alternative is to find someone who can make me a tubular pair that require no more space than the rams.

There are other considerations and compromises to find:

1. Engine height needs to be low enough to allow the carb, and ideally a thin pancake, to clear the bonnet whilst leaving me sufficient sump clearance.
2. Engine needs to sit at an angle, offside further forward than nearside, to allow box output flange to line up with diff via a tunnel that is offset.
3. Moving the engine /back, moving it back reduces clash of bottom hose/water pump with steering rack and would be better for weight distribution, bringing it forward clears a bulkhead chassis rail which is helpful to Point 1.
4. Steering column clash, top UJ fouls with manifold, bottom UJ restricts bottom hose. I do have some scope to reposition the rack and I will change the UJs.
5. All of the above would be influenced by how the engine mounts and chassis meet. I purchased two types, a flattish pair and a tripod pair, using the flat ones looks most likely but either way I will need chassis fabrication to make the connection.

Plenty of thinking and trial & error required, next couple of weekends are busy with other things so it will be later in Aug before I can get back to it.

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A follow up question. If I'm aiming for 250-300 hp what is my best carb option mindful that I need it to be as flat as possible? The carb that came with the engine is 110 mm tall, assuming I fit a pancake, which I would prefer to do, I guess it will add another 50mm. It would be ideal if I could find a carb/filter combination that would be around 125 mm. Any suggestions?

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This picture shows the engine as positioned by the previous owner, it was never run in this car. With the bonnet on the clearance to the carb is minimal. I have removed part of the rib from the bonnet underside, this has given me an extra 10mm. I can get the engine lower in this position and or get it lower and pull it forward so that the carb would be further from the scuttle panel and the chassis rail under the scuttle panel. The manifold, with is a Holley, seems to me to be pretty minimalist height wise.

I see that there are quite a few models of the Holley Double Pumper, any view on which would be best for my race application?

The idea of having the headers exit forward is one I thought about, indeed when I was at Brands recently I was looking at a car that had exactly that. In my case it would not work, the pinch point is the lack of width not so much the routing.

The advice is much appreciated.

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The horns that I have fitted are per your 2nd image , they were in a box of bits I got with the car. On both sides of the engine bay there is a 45 degree chassis box section. On the off-side, the steering column runs directly below this bit of the chassis and the 1st of two UJs is inline with the front end of the manifold. The existing UJ is a chunky thing that fouls however I will replace this with a less bulky UJ. On the nearside, to avoid the manifold clashing with the chassis I cut off the the brackets on the front of the manifold.

Manifolds wise I think I have two options, adapt what I have fitted or give them to someone as a template to make tubular versions within the approx. same dimensions. These pictures are a bit deceptive as the engine is propped on bits of wood given that I have not yet decided on the best position, also the steering column section is removed, they do however give the gist of what I'm working with. I'm not sure what sort of flex/twist to expect with the engine under load but my guess would be that I need to aim to be at least 20mm clear

I'm working away from home this week, I will have a hunt for those part numbers at the weekend.

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roscobbc said:

An interesting 'alternative' V8 build-up - love it!

Gilbern built 202 of the GT between '59 and 66. It started out with an A series engine, a few of which were supercharged, they then moved on to the B series and towards the end a few were built with Ford V4, with Ford becoming the base for the Genie and Invader models that followed late '60s and into the '70s. There was only one V8, built by the factory at the request of a local racer, Ken Wilson, this is the car I'm restoring. The club have membership records on approx.100 GTs so in % terms the survival rate has been high.

I own another GT, a car I purchased in bits in 2019 and have been racing for the last few years'. This is a B series car, built in '64 and having built it to original specification I have FIA papers for it. Compared with MGBs, I run about mid-pack.

As a one off factory car there are few details on the V8, it is mentioned in several books, Autosport of the era and I have various race/sprint results from period. As a one-off it will never get FIA papers, there a couple of race series that it would sit well in and having spoken the organisers and their message is the same, in that providing I keep it in period and don't take the piss they will welcome it to the grid. So practically speaking this means I can upgrade for reliability, for example using electronic ignition, hi-torque starter etc. but not use fuel injection.

Ken Wilson owned a number of race cars, this was the era when ex team Jags, Astons, BRMs etc were sold from works teams and picked up by club racers who sprinted and raced them, now of course these are these are highly valued classics, Ken's Lister Jag, is a regular on the historic scene and if it came to the market would have a seven figure price tag. Coming back to the more modest Gilbern Chevy GT, it was reported that Ken borrowed the V8 for his boat which subsequently sank.

The body restoration on the Chevy GT is now complete, restored to Ken's original colours, red with a white bonnet stripe, and hence the next big task is to get the engine into position before I move on to other things. I will be racing it next year. Pictures bellow of the Chevy GT and my regular GT.

Edited by Keep it stiff on Thursday 3rd August 06:48

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roscobbc said:

Can you run it in Bernies series?

I have not enquired about Bernies but you are right that it could be a good option. HRDC have said I can run it in their All Stars and Equipe would be happy to have it in Libre.

Thanks for the offer on the filter. Hold fire for now, the responses on carb and filter height were very helpful, I will be spending a day in the garage on Sunday and now that I know the target I'm going to do a bit more manipulation with the engine on the crane to see where I can get to.

I had one other thought, is there scope to re-engineer the sump? It seems to be very deep at the front but shallow at the back. The pan is going to need anti-surge modification in any event, if there is scope to modify the pick-up and or shape of the pan, if so I might be able to win 50mm there.

I do not have any info on the original engine spec, I have seen it quoted as 4,700 cc and 5,000. The chairman of the Gilbern club knows this car well and gathered quite a lot on info, I have been researching too, for example the image below I found in a 1966 Autosport. Given that Ken Wilson owned some high-end race cars, and given the effort/cost of the Gilbern factory building this one-off GT, I rather suspect the original engine would have come from a race car and not a random crashed pick-up, unfortunately I will never know as the answer is sitting at the bottom of the sea somewhere.

A fact that is known is that the wheels on the Chevy GT came from Ken's BRM, an ex F1 car of the day, again perhaps another pointer that his engine would not have been stock.

The engine that is with the car at the moment was purchased by the previous owner, its condition is unknown. At the moment I'm less worried about engine spec, the objective for now is to make sure I can make it fit so that I can finalise the position and work out the engine mounting etc, all other mechanical considerations can follow on.

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Oneball said:

There were quite a few European race cars using SBC, not in large numbers but they were being raced out the backdoor; Lister used the 283 from 1959 and Bizzarini the 327 from 1964. Lola and McLaren also using SBC from the mid sixties

Did you say Ken Wilson had a Lister? Was it a Chevy one? They ran Rochester FI, but I doubt that’s a route worth going down.

Edited by Oneball on Thursday 3rd August 20:18

Edited by Oneball on Thursday 3rd August 20:19

This the Lister Knobbly was a Jag, I have some poor quality pictures of Ken with is cars. The following is a copy/paste of a post I found on another forum:

Ken Wilson & Ron Fry both fell into that notorious motor sport catch-all of "wealthy amateur". Elsewhere I have seen Wilson described as a driver with "more money than talent" but I think that is a tad unfair. He had frequent success, perhaps assisted by the fact that, like Fry, he had the means to access some serious machinery.

Ron Fry's career is well documented, particularly when he moved on from his Ferrari 250GT/275LM and acquired his GT40's (chassis 1017 and then an update to 1073). The GT40 adventure ended with a big accident at Brands.

Ken Wilson is lesser known. A builder from Bridgend in South Wales he raced on both land and water. His Lister Jaguar Knobbly was the ex-Ecurie Nationale Belgique '58 Le Mans car whilst he also did a handful of events in his BRM P48 which, I believe, was the ex Tony Marsh car. By the late 60's he was racing a Lotus 30 (particularly at Llandow) but I can find no details of which chassis this was *****. He then moved onto a McLaren M1C (chassis 40/04) which was the ex-John Woolfe car. Alongside this he campaigned a Gilbern 1800GT fitted with either a Chevy or Cobra V8 - legend has it that this engine shared its time between the car and his racing powerboat. The Gilbern returned to 4 pot power when the boat sank with the loss of the V8.

I remember taking the Campbell steamer from Penarth Pier (Cardiff) to Weston-Super-Mare one year to watch the Weston Speed Trials. Wilson was entered, probably in the "30". When the car succumbed to engine failure the racing numbers were swapped onto his lumbering big Yank tow car (possibly a Fairline/Galaxie?). I remember the car being very noisy but, to borrow someone else's quote, it gathered momentum rather than accelerated down the Weston seafront.

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Good progress in the garage today. I re-fitted the engine mounts and then tried the block in a few different positions. The solution was always going to be a compromise between reasonable ground clearance for sump, creating enough space for the carb/filter, chassis clearance for the manifolds, the column UJs and avoiding a clash of bottom hose with the rack.

The best solution was keeping the height as it was previously and pulling the engine forward about 60 mm. What I have ended ticks all boxes except one, there is not room to get a standard filter housing on. I decide this was the lesser the evils, I run my other race cars without ail filters and there is just about room to improvise a guard as a precaution to ingesting debris.

My new steering column UJs were outrageously expensive but they are beautifully engineered and take a fraction of the space compared with the MG originals. The engine is sitting level side to side and front to back.

Having got to this conclusion I am now making new chassis brackets to mate with the engine mounts, as I do not have the ability to weld I'm making templates of wood and from these I will get someone to make them up for me. One of my templates fits fine, with the second one I went wrong and ran out of energy to correct it this evening, I will get these finished next weekend.

I could not resist doing a trial fit for the bonnet!

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roscobbc said:

Surprisingly a GM drop base filter assembly (with reduced height element and K & N air filter top) may actually fit under the hood.......unless the underside of the hood as some intrusive reinforcing structure.

There was a some reinforcing under the hood but I removed it in anticipation of space being tight.