Trying to to buy a "mega-watch". Budget £40,000. Help!

[CKQC]

Long time “lurker” and have finally signed up, so hello to all.

I have decided to take a massive, wristwatch sized plunge.

I have a budget of a maximum of £40,000.

I am hoping to spend less but would go to £40,000 for an exceptional piece.

My criteria are:

1. Annual or perpetual calendar.
2. Moon phase would be a bonus.
3. Preferably Patek (my first choice), Audemars, Vacheron or A Lange & Sohn.
4. The piece is expected to hold its value.

Of course, happy to be educated on any other watches or features that I have excluded through ignorance.

Please do include links and pictures. Advice on who to buy from, prices and things to look out for would be very welcome.

I can completely appreciate that my point (4) involves crystal-balling, but my understanding is that generally speaking, an annual or perpetual calendar from one of the above, is more likely that most watches to hold its value.

I hope that my first thread is one that becomes very active and I will be happy to post what I buy, or update as I go through the process of finding the watch.

[CKQC]

Hoofy said:

Not keen on gold/white but: http://www.watchfinder.co.uk/A.%20Lange%20and%20So...

Thank you Hoofy. That is a bit of a strong watch! However, thank you for the thought.

schmunk said:

Is it the school holidays?

• look at phone, as I haven't worn a watch it about 10 years**

Yes, it is the school holidays.

Hoofy said:

This is the watches subforum so you will be busy commenting on every single thread asking for advice to mention your phone as a replacement for a watch.

Hoovy, I think schmunk was trying to suggest that this is a hoax thread. Anyway, hope the rest of the forum is more helpful than this chap. Perhaps his forum name should have been schmuck?

I have been focusing my attention on Patek more than any other watchmaker at this point, and I have been very drawn to the 5905, but that would appear to be somewhat above budget. Picture below.



As a result, I have looked at the 5205 which is a similar concentric circles design and more within the range I would like to spend.



I have also considered a Nautilus 5726, but I have a 90s bi-metal Royal Oak with day-date, so while the Nautilus would blow it out of the water, I already have something comparable by Genta.



Thank you Yex for suggesting DH. I will speak to him once I have narrowed things down to one or two choices.

Edited by CKQC on Monday 31st July 15:15

[CKQC]

I'm certainly not averse to JLC in any way, it's just that when it comes to the criteria of holding value, the other 4 seems to be another level up? The Duometre is lovely, but a little too busy in the face for me. For me JLC comes into it's own in the sub-£20,000 category for an understated dress watch.

Please do make mention of anything that comes to mind, even if not on my list!

[CKQC]

That is lovely and retrograde to boot. I haven't come across the manufacturer myself. My knowledge is mostly restricted to the more "famous" watch houses.

Suggestions so far have been right at the £40,000 limit! Let's see a few a little lower is possible!

Any views on a 5140 with a brown dial? Do you think I'd get bored with the colour and wish I'd gone for something more vanilla in time? I've never owned a "fancy" dial. It's about £30,000 - £35,000.



As an aside, are watches actually selling for these prices or are seller taking offers?

Edited by CKQC on Monday 31st July 17:08

[CKQC]

mikeveal said:

Whatever you go for, if you are looking to depreciation proof your purchase you need to go for second hand.

For that kind of money I'd be considering a tourby.

Yes, completely agree and not averse to used watches. However, what is interesting to note is the price differential between new, unworn and used is actual quite small at this level. It's only when watches start to slip into lower grade condition that I think there's an actual "saving".

Any tourbillons (with links or pictures) in mind? Cheers.

I have considered a Patek 5130 as it falls into a lower price bracket (£20s as opposed to 30s), but I have this ridiculous notion (that I can't dismiss) that it is a little more of a "common" Patek. I only have the idea because a friend has one, and I reckon it's probably the only one I've ever seen! Also, it's not an annual or perpetual, but it does have an interesting complication. Probably discounted due to lack of annual-perpetual which I am going to stick to!



As you can see, I appear to be quite Patek focussed, so hoping to have my mind opened to a few other options with the annual-perpetual complication.

Edited by CKQC on Tuesday 1st August 09:06

[CKQC]

PJ S said:

You're wrong! A Lange & Sohne pre-owned prices are almost half their RRP, and De Bethune are worse still, which makes both a ‘bargain’.
Those are only two examples, but the steel Rolexes and Patek’s Nautilus/Aquanaut/World Timer are the ones which trade at or over retail for new/pre-owned – Hublot, Roger Dubuis, Bvlgari, Grand Seiko, etc, aren’t immune from typical depreciation levels.

If you were to contemplate the purchase of a Vacheron Constantin Overseas 4500V, you’d be a mug if you paid anything more than 20% off the list price, as that’s the typical dicount achievable, and for an AL&S, you’d be aiming at 30%, so as not to take an absolute hammering on resale.

Thanks for this. I'd be super grateful to see some comparables, i.e. examples and figures (for annual-perpetual calendar watches) if you can stomach spending the time to do this, for someone you don't know!

ZesPak said:

While of course this whole thing is hypothetical, and I like cars too much to ever spend 10k or more on a watch, I do feel like buying a 30k Rolex or Omega is like buying a 5k Timex or Fossil.

I considered buying another car. However, I am in the privileged position of having what I need. Buying a watch has no running costs: no insurance, no petrol, etc. It has therefore crystallised where the money will go on this occasion unless a very well priced BMW 1m arrives at my door...

Completely agree re Omega and to a lesser degree, Rolex.

mikeveal said:

Well here's a few, but not all are in budget ('cus I don't have to stick to your budget, I'm not paying! .)

Thanks, but not exactly helpful if they’re not in budget. We all know what a tourbillon looks like . Then again, we all love watches so why say no to looking at another one, even if it is off-topic!

Edited by CKQC on Tuesday 1st August 12:52

[CKQC]

PJ S said:

I do it all the time, so it’s no issue – but here’s a prime example of my previous point. And it’s limited to 50 pieces, so possibly rarer than some Patek tourbillons.

Allow me to somewhat ignore the criteria set out in your opening post, and provide you with some food for thought.

Thanks for this. Have to be honest and say that none of them feel as elegant as the Pateks do to me. Taste is such a subjective thing! I was hoping you could point me to excellent deals in the used market for the sort of thing I'm looking for?

Hoofy said:

You could probably pick up a Chinese knock-off with the same functionality for under £100. It's what is going on behind the face that is the real difference.

Purely out of pure curiosity, really? I doubt anyone who knows watches would be fooled?

[CKQC]

PJ S said:

That’s a shame, because the GOs offer excellent value for their money and will give you all you ask for – bar the cachet of a Trinity brand name. It seems to me that you’re not yet ready to venture beyond the shallow end of the pool, which is perfectly fine… but it does limit your options significantly.

Yes, I would agree with that. I am a rather unsophisticated watch "aficionado" when it really comes down to it I suspect... Perhaps, another time!

PJ S said:

If 38.5mm isn’t too small for you, then take a look at the AL&S Saxonia Annual Calendar or the Langematic PC – both of which move the seconds hand to the vertical/zero position when setting the time.

I have small wrists actually, so 38 is pretty much bang on for me. Nice looking thing. There are a couple in London that I will go see.

wezo said:

How about an MB&F Moon Machine, fits your criteria albeit not many about and possibly lacks liquidity, but an amazing piece of kit for sure.

I think one of my criteria is elegance, and while this is quite spectacular, I don't think it's quite for me. Thank you though.

Enzo Gorlami said:

In the end I bought a platinum Daytona. Fabulous watch and no regrets 15 months down the line.

Yes, I have a few Rolex's which I enjoy including a Daytona. I prefer my Royal Oak to the Daytona and while a platinum Daytona is a lovely thing, to me, it isn't a "next level" watch.

[CKQC]

geezerbutler said:

Not a bad suggestion - maybe something like this?

http://www.chrono24.com/breguet/classique-perpetue...

Morning folks, that is a lovely looking Breguet. I am doing some looking around on Monday, so will try and put some pictures up at some point.

Slightly falling for the 5940 again. It's the watch that started all of this when I saw it in Dubai last year... It's rather dearer though generally. Thoughts on the 5490?Unusual shape for Patek which is why I think I'm drawn to it



http://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf.forumpost/fi-1...

Comes in a choice of three dials. Which one for you guys out of interest, and why?

Cheapest one is £39,000 - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphilippe/18k-wg-se...

[CKQC]

Flying machine said:

AL&S Langematik Perpetual are also in budget too? What a wonderful problem to have CKQC, wish I had the same sort of problems!

Thank you, yes, very fortunate and grateful. Sadly, not in the budget in the UK.



Got me looking at the reference 410.038 A. Lange & Söhne Datograph Perpetual, which is just UNBELIEVABLE, but out of my league.

http://www.ablogtowatch.com/a-lange-sohne-datograp...

|https://thumbsnap.com/3ufgm0Cl[/url]

Flying machine said:

The Patek 5140 you mentioned earlier looks rather superb, you're just going to have to try them all and decide which you like best. I'd be interested to see if you manage to negotiate any discounts on such expensive watches if you buy them new from an AD as top of my wishlist is a (slightly more modest) PP 5146g

Absolutely nothing wrong with a 5146. Super tasteful my friend…

I’d be very hard pressed to choose between the two, which I may end up doing given the greater distance from £40,000 limit.



Patek 5140 above - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/search/index.htm?access...



Patek 5146 above - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/search/index.htm?access... [url]

[CKQC]

Ikemi said:

For anything above £30K, I'd be looking at Glashutte Original or A.Lange & Sohne, as others have mentioned. However I get the impression you're really after a PP! You should get a PP. I think you might be somewhat disappointed with something else!

I think you have somewhat hit the nail on the head! I think my heart is set on a PP, but I am trying hard to find anything else to grab me. Trying to keep as open a mind as possible. The Lange above is just superb, but sadly, too much money for me.

Ikemi said:

I'll end this with my sub-£40K choice ... Patek Philippe Annual Calendar 5396R-012. There's one on Chrono24 for c.£31K!

That's a lovely looking thing. Am I right in saying that the colour of the moonphase matches the strap?

[CKQC]

Hi, thanks for this but I have been reading PH long enough to know the best thing to do is ignore posts like those. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but "calling out" these types, will only lead to more pointless chatter from these members when their little egos are pricked, which will spoil the thread for those of us (like you) that are here for the right reasons. I'd delete your post if you can be bothered to do so. Many thanks though!

Edited by CKQC on Friday 4th August 17:18

[CKQC]

So, I went down to my "local" and tried on 3 Pateks: 5396, 5146, 5205.

All lovely watches ranging from 38mm - 40mm. I liked them all, but I have to confess that they didn't blow me away... I did find myself wondering if 38/40mm is too big for me? Some pictures for your thoughts.





All the watches sat a bit high, but I think that was due to the leather being brand new and the watch not really sitting flush on my wrist.

While I was there, it felt like the 5146 looked the best. However, looking at the picture, I think the 5205 looks better? I was dissapointed by the 5396, but I want to see one with a non-rhodium dial.

I almost feel like I should go and try and a discontinued 36mm Patek on for size. Also off to make an appointment to try the Lange 310.025.

[CKQC]

DJMC said:

sad61t said:

For £40,000 I'd have to be 100% happy; and I know exactly what you mean when you try a watch and find it dominates the wrist. If you think they're too big then take the time to try a 36 mm model.

Crazy to think that svelte pocket watches used to be 44 mm, and now wrist watches are commonly sized similarly. But that's a whole new thread.

Yes, if you're thinking now that 40mm is too big that thought may continue into ownership, and regret.

Perhaps you're thinking you should have a bigger watch as it's the trend, but I'd say it's not size but proportion to your wrist you should consider most.

Yes, thank you you are both right. I will be buying for what works on me as opposed to what is acceptable via current trends. I will be going to look at PP in the 36mm/37mm range including watches such as these. Thoughts?






Also, any thoughts on Nautilus Annual Calendars? Leather strap or without? Any suggestions for which ones to look at?

Do we think that maybe I shouldn't just look at annual calendars now?

T6 vanman said:

Having not followed the whole thread .. I guess CKQC has quashed the 'school holiday' comments

The noises from the malicious, unhelpful and jealous rabble that resides on PH has never bothered me. I would never address them and would try to just move on. Unsurprising to see that they're quiet now, not even an apology for shamelessly trying to malign/embarrass a person they have never met. Pathetic.

Edited by CKQC on Tuesday 15th August 14:38

[CKQC]

Flying machine said:

I've got a 'thing' at the moment about A. Lange & Söhne, and see that they make a rather obscenely expensive Langematik Perpetual Calendar that may just sneak into your (very generous) budget if you keep an eye on Chrono24?

A previous poster on here, very helpfully pushed me in the same direction. I am going to view a Lange 310.025 which is gorgeous in pictures. The one I'd love is a 410.025, but I can barely bring myself to afford the 310.025. Again, 38.5mm so not getting ahead of myself.

Cheapest one is in China, which I would never even attempt a purchase from!

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/alangesoehne/310025--id...

[CKQC]

I think I have been slightly thrown by how I wasn't blown away by the PPs I tried on at the showroom. I've been speaking to a friend who is properly into his watches and he says that £40,000 is a funny number for a budget. In his view, it doesn't get you into the truly top end stuff, but you're close and once you start looking that high "up" it's hard to look back down! Interesting thought and I'm not sure whether I agree, or not...

I think I need to look at that Lange 310.025 but my concern is that it is unlikely to hold it's value? It does speak to me in the pictures though.

I also think I need to accept that it's highly unlikely that I will be able to carry off a watch that is any larger than 38mm unless it "wears small". Perhaps need to focus on 36/37mm watches now?

Also, who would you guys recommend I visit for used watches in London? Ultimately, one needs to try this stuff on...

Champagne problems!

drainbrain said:

Wouldn't suit me or my lifestyle but (imo as a Patek fan and owner) that's way way ahead of anything else you've posted of the same type.

Keen to understand your thought behind this?

Edited by CKQC on Saturday 19th August 11:18

[CKQC]

Carl_Manchester said:

I would go into watchfinder inside the royal exchange at bank and just try on loads of different types until you get the style and size understood in your head and go from there.

there is also a watches of switzerland around the corner in the same building outside and an Omega store opposite inside, I usually just walk into both and try a few bits on.

I have found them all to be friendly and very accommodating.

Carl, thanks very much for this. I have looked online and can see they hold a lot of "contenders" and watches that have been discussed here. It would be good to try them on in the same place.

PP 5905 (the watch that started all of this!) - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphilippe/watch-com...

Platinum Daytona - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/rolex/watch-daytona-116...

Lange 310.02x - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/alangesoehne/watch-lang...

PP 5960 - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphilippe/watch-com...

World Time - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphilippe/watch-com...

5205 - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphilippe/watch-com...

Vacheron Perpetual - https://www.chrono24.co.uk/vacheronconstantin/watc...

I tried the A Lange 310.025 today. Have to say it is absolutely fking (apols, but it's that good) awesome. Tuetonic brilliance. Absolutely stinks of quality and weight of stroke!





£72.000 new though... So, better to have loved and lost...

Edited by CKQC on Sunday 20th August 18:17

[CKQC]

PJ S said:

What’s this “lost” business? https://www.chrono24.co.uk/alangesoehne/langematik... � get in touch and stake your claim, pronto! It’s the newest one under £45k, and even has the £5K (if not more) deployante clasp rather than the more usual buckle. I’m confident you could get that down to something not that much over your budget. We expect incoming thread and pics by the end of the week, so chop, chop!

Ha! Great points, well made.

However, curve ball in from left-field which has possibly, potentially, maybe, perhaps moved the Lange into second place. Just so hard to decide!

I've been trying on everything in sight but I won't be a bore and post all the pictures!

In summary, the Pateks left me cold, which was sad. Tried the 5905 (too big), 5205 (not special enough) 5230 (very cool but not a calendar and dial needs a geography degree), the 5396 and 5146 - they looked fab on the table but just didn't look right on me. They didn't have any Nautilus in stock due to demand.

The IWCs and JLCs didn't feel like they were in the same class. The Hublots felt like you'd buy them only if you didn't know AP existed.

I came back to the Patek showroom for one last look around and was just starting to wonder if PP was for me, when I asked to see the 5940J-001. I put that on and then BAM, my eyebrows shot up as did the dealer's and my companion's.

I know that the cushion shape is not that sought after and could mean it loses more money than a round Patek. I know that the watch has had rave reviews but has not sold in the same way as some other Pateks, such as the Nautilus.

But, it just worked on my wrist. I tried it on in white gold (with white and black faces) and yellow gold (with a cream face) and it only "worked" for me in yellow gold. The wrinkle is that it's "only £61,000, Sir" from Patek because it's a perpetual calendar, hence the bump in price.





Off to Royal Exchange now. Facebook live streaming anyone?

[CKQC]

dimots said:

That looks perfect. Buy it.

Tell you what though, 5205 looks a LOT better on my wrist in gold (need to check if I'm a rapstar?). Suddenly doesn't feel so big, has more presence and melts in against my skin a little more

5940 and Lange still leading pack though...

[CKQC]

PJ S said:

Just bear in mind that Patek makes around 70K pieces annually, Lange is lucky if it makes even 7K – and for good measure, Rolex makes circa 800K!

How strange then, that it is Rolex and Patek that lead the way when it comes to auctions and value. They obviously have the "x-factor" which means that the production volume has a negligible effect.

I am leaning towards the Lange, but with sensible hat on, I know that I have a responsibility to value and the Patek is more likely to retain it's value than the Lange...