Your thoughts on fake watches
Discussion
I am perfectly aware that in many countries counterfeit watches are illegal, as I am that in many countries they aren't. I don't own one, and have no interest in owning one, albeit I am a big fan of well made homage watches. There are arguments that fake watches damage the business of luxury brands, although it could be argued that fake watches are actually a free form of advertising for the real thing. Some may say that if luxury brand watches were not so unnecessarily expensive, then fake brands wouldn't exist, or possibly not so many of them. The arguments go on and on, and I am fully aware that most owners of expensive watches hate fakes.
From a personal point of view, the concept of a fake watch doesn't bother me if the buyer is aware it is fake. What annoys me is somebody being lead into buying an imitation in the belief it is real. It sure is a controversial subject, but life is boring with controversy !!
Your views gentleman
From a personal point of view, the concept of a fake watch doesn't bother me if the buyer is aware it is fake. What annoys me is somebody being lead into buying an imitation in the belief it is real. It sure is a controversial subject, but life is boring with controversy !!
Your views gentleman
sandman77 said:
I do wonder what topic tiggerbits will choose for tomorrows thread. Let me guess - something about cheep watches that is likely to divide opinion?
If we all just ignore this troll he will eventually get bored and go away. Its getting boring now.
FOYW. Figure it out for yourself If we all just ignore this troll he will eventually get bored and go away. Its getting boring now.
Dempsey1971 said:
It’s always interesting when this subject comes up, which it does quite regularly.
I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
Yes, you have to ask yourself, if someone can produce a replica for £500 that is so close to the original that cost £20,000, when nobody but the original manufacturer can tell the difference, why does the original cost 40 times as much ?I love watches, I have very many, some reasonably expensive, some cheap and modern, some ebay vintage bargains, some to play with. Do replica watches detract from my enjoyment of my original (if there is a decent copy). No. In fact, I am quiet glad that there are good copies of watches for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it stops watchmakers becoming complacent. They need to innovate in bot design and technology / materials to stay ahead of the replica producers. Without this pressure, we’d be paying for the same old thing year after year.
Secondly, I genuinely believe it drives sales of the real thing UP, not down. The purchaser of a crap knockoff bought on the beach in Thailand was never a customer of the real thing anyway, so doesn’t impact sales. The kind of person who shells out £500 and up on a replica is likely to have done extensive research, read about the watch, and is likely to end up buying 1, 2 or more originals. Read the forums and this happens over and over again. They have 10, 15 replicas, but several (more than the average person by far) originals too. It’s interesting that these forums and the associated dealers are not instantly closed down. It wouldn’t be that hard to do. The occasional half-hearted crackdown, but ultimately back up and running almost immediately. I think the genuine manufacturers secretly nurture this.
Thirdly, replica forums seem to be filled with some of the most knowledgeable ‘watch’ people out there, easily as good as, if not better than on other fora, because many of them have opened the watch up and played with or modded it. Something genuine watch owners just don’t do. I guess I just like that enthusiasm. I respect it.
andy tims said:
He says he knows a lot about watches. I’m not convinced, but I’d say knows plenty about trolling.
The word trolling is most often used by people with a lesser intelligence, who don't have a reasonable argument. In short, it's a school boys name calling technique. Sad but true. I have a reasonable knowledge of what constitutes a good watch, a better understanding of what makes a watch great value for money, but a relatively poor knowledge of luxury brand watches that cost as much as a good car. That doesn't mean I don't like luxury brand watches, it just means I can't afford them. For this reason I treat myself from time to time to a homage watch which is of a similar design but doesn't pretend to be the real thing. Now, can we have an understanding, don't call me childish names and I will reciprocate
nbetts said:
I can think of loads of reasons...
Employees of the legitmate watch manufacturer has to pay for things like
Staff Salaries
Staff training
Investment in plant and materials
R&D
Marketing
Business Costs
The fake watch brands just need to copy what sells
and use slave labour run by gangs to produce knock off s
t
Of course I am no naïve enough to say that some of the Very expensive watches do not have a factor of snake oil woven into the fabric of the pricing.
I mean a Patek Phillips costing several hundred thousand £££'s - or a Mont Blanc costing similar... these manufacturers charge what they think the market will sustain.
Once you have a sublime reputation and there is consumer demand you can charge what the market will sustain.
When I think of fake watches despite how good they might look I just think criminal gangs, drugs, slave labour and thugs behind the little £30 trinket on a tourists wrist.
Sorry.
OK, I get your point, but let me break down the costs. The man hours to produce a Rolex submariner (for example) is almost certainly no more than 5. At most these people would be earning no more than about £15 per hour. The materials bought in at bulk, even for a top quality watch would be no more than £200. Of course, there are other overheads such as admin, packaging and marketing etc. These overheads would probably double the aforementioned costs, so a total production cost of about £500 is a reasonable guess. The manufacturer will then double their production cost to the retailer, who will in turn double their purchase price for the end buyer. In short, a stainless Rolex Submariner should cost the end user £2000 at most. Unfortunately it actually costs at least 4 times that. I am a retired retailer with buying knowledge, so please trust me. Employees of the legitmate watch manufacturer has to pay for things like
Staff Salaries
Staff training
Investment in plant and materials
R&D
Marketing
Business Costs
The fake watch brands just need to copy what sells
and use slave labour run by gangs to produce knock off s
tOf course I am no naïve enough to say that some of the Very expensive watches do not have a factor of snake oil woven into the fabric of the pricing.
I mean a Patek Phillips costing several hundred thousand £££'s - or a Mont Blanc costing similar... these manufacturers charge what they think the market will sustain.
Once you have a sublime reputation and there is consumer demand you can charge what the market will sustain.
When I think of fake watches despite how good they might look I just think criminal gangs, drugs, slave labour and thugs behind the little £30 trinket on a tourists wrist.
Sorry.
As far as the cheap labour and criminal gang argument goes, I don't really care. We in the west should stop attempting to enforce our working standards and morality onto other countries. If it looks like a Rolex, is of similar quality to a Rolex, and works like a Rolex, as far as I am concerned, it's ALMOST a Rolex. Like I said, I choose not to wear fake watches, but have no issue with those who do, as long as they know what they are buying
nikaiyo2 said:
He thinks a Rolex employed watchmaker costs less to employ than a crew member in McDonald’s Geneva earns, tells you all you need to know really.
You live in a different world to most of us. A crew member in Mc Donalds earns national minimum wage, which is £7.83 an hour. I quoted £15, which is almost twice that.bigandclever said:
If you believe glassdoor (and why wouldn’t you?) a Rolex horloger earns roughly Euro 90k.
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life. As it happens a close friend of mine's daughter recently stopped working for Rolex after 10 years, and that is where I got the £15 an hour from. Jayho said:
Now the likes of Parnis homages or even fakes won't even have half of the workforce, never mind the same pay. There is no guarantee of the materials used is of a high standard etc...
Your absolutely right, and that's why they cost approximately 1% of a Rolex. The fact is that Parnis watches represent absolutely fantastic value for money, whilst Rolex are horribly over priced. In the UK it is possible to buy a brand new car for less than the price of a Rolex, so please don't attempt to tell me that luxury watches are worth the money, because they simply aren't. Now, I am not questioning the quality of a Rolex (for example), and am perfectly aware they are considerably better than a Seiko, or Citizen, I am questioning the unrealistic prices. I own an Omega myself, albeit an old relatively cheap one, and realise how well made it is made. Anyway, back to the topic in question. I fully understand any ones dislike of fake watches, and appreciate the reasons why people wouldn't want to buy one. For me, I would just rather invest in a decent homage which actually costs a fair bit less than a replica.
EddieSteadyGo said:
Not having a dig at you at TiggerBits, but have you been recently to Switzerland? £15 / hr was the proposed *minimum* wage there a few years ago. Whilst that proposal didn't become law, salaries (and cost of living) is very expensive.
Perhaps, but somebody quoted 90k a year, BONKERSlostkiwi said:
Some of the fakes are. I know of two ADs (non-Rolex) that were fooled by fakes they inspected.
The point about inflated purchase price is also valid - Rolex deliberately manipulate the market to ensure the price is kept sky high - in other words the purchase price bears no alignment to the cost of manufacture and in that respect are ripping off the consumer. Rolex are so adept at it that folks will believe the hype and clamour to pay the extra with 2 year waiting lists and all that other bull. In other words they milk the consumer for every cent (one of the reasons I'm not a Rolex fan). To some extent Rolex are a victim of their own success in this by being the most copied manufacturer for fakes.
I get the whole aspirational thing of luxury brands but I also get that folks will want something of the same style (because they like the look of it) which they can get in a homage and have no problem with that.I don't really have an issue with fakes either because at the end of the day the person buying the fake knows its not the real McCoy and if they are happy with that then fine. It only becomes an issue when the fake is sold on as real and someone else is ripped off. If folks are so shallow to care what someone else wears that's their problem.
My point exactly, and well saidThe point about inflated purchase price is also valid - Rolex deliberately manipulate the market to ensure the price is kept sky high - in other words the purchase price bears no alignment to the cost of manufacture and in that respect are ripping off the consumer. Rolex are so adept at it that folks will believe the hype and clamour to pay the extra with 2 year waiting lists and all that other bull. In other words they milk the consumer for every cent (one of the reasons I'm not a Rolex fan). To some extent Rolex are a victim of their own success in this by being the most copied manufacturer for fakes.
I get the whole aspirational thing of luxury brands but I also get that folks will want something of the same style (because they like the look of it) which they can get in a homage and have no problem with that.I don't really have an issue with fakes either because at the end of the day the person buying the fake knows its not the real McCoy and if they are happy with that then fine. It only becomes an issue when the fake is sold on as real and someone else is ripped off. If folks are so shallow to care what someone else wears that's their problem.
Jayho said:
What brand new car are you talking of which costs less than a Rolex? Some of the most popular Rolexes are their submariners and GMT. Each of which can be picked up for £6-8k for a s/s version. Although I don't think that a watch should ever be bought just to hold is value, but buying a brand new car your depreciation alone would cost you more than a Rolex after 3 years.
By your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
Vauxhall Viva and a few Sandero's. Perhaps not the best cars on the market, but offered either and I would take the car over an £8k Rolex any dayBy your logic I can confidently say that from now on I'm never going to get married as it would be cheaper for me to hire a hooker whenever mood feels like as it proposes a better value for money.
EddieSteadyGo said:
I'm with bigandclever on this one.
Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...
So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."
So you presume that all the staff in the Rolex factories are qualified horologists. Of course they are not. The vast majority of them will be trained monkeys who carry our menial tasks. In a factory of 100 workers I would be surprised if there are any more than a couple of actual horologists. If you ACTUALLY believe that an £8k Rolex justifies the cost, not to mention a £20k+ PP, then carry on believing it. It's your money, you spend it on what you like Have a look at this link....the median salary of a registered nurse for example is over 58,000 CHF which gives you some idea of where employment costs are currently in Switzerland.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Gene...
So I think the appropriate response on this point TiggerBits is something like, "that's interesting. Maybe I might have been mistaken on that..."
EddieSteadyGo said:
The *average* salary in Geneva is over 100,000 CHF, so I am not sure it is that far over the top. Also, I've found Glassdoor (in an unrelated industry) to have reasonably good data.
I just had a look, and the average Swiss salary is about £45k, which is a lot more than the UK, but miles off of what some people are saying
davek_964 said:
I think it was on another thread, but somebody asked why you're even on the forum. It's primarily a car forum but you only ever seem to post here - and even then, you seem intent on posting contentious issues, and even repeat similar threads.
I never saw an answer.
You seem to object to being called a troll, and yet you've joined a car forum where you only ever post on the watch section, and even then only subjects that would obviously cause debate.
Why are you here? Think you said you're retired - is it really that boring? You remind me of the recently banned Yipper who's only contributions were to cause arguments - although he posted in more areas than you, but fortunately got banned in the end.
This section is a watch forum, I have no interest in the other parts of the site, as my favourite brand of car is Kia, and I am sure you wouldn't appreciate that either. I presume your idea of a forum is somewhere people can just agree with each other. I never saw an answer.
You seem to object to being called a troll, and yet you've joined a car forum where you only ever post on the watch section, and even then only subjects that would obviously cause debate.
Why are you here? Think you said you're retired - is it really that boring? You remind me of the recently banned Yipper who's only contributions were to cause arguments - although he posted in more areas than you, but fortunately got banned in the end.
Edited by andy.mod on Saturday 28th April 20:48
Lord Marylebone said:
With the greatest of respect, the claim of 'all fake watches just fall apart' is just total nonsense.
Your absolutely right. the better fakes are so well made they fool most jewellers and so called experts. In some cases the only people who can tell the difference are the manufacturers themselves. Of course, you can't beat a really cheap fake. My friend owns a £5 submariner bought in Turkey. It weighs about an ounce, and has a cheap quartz movement in it. The funny thing is that 90% of people think it's real. makes you wonder, doesn't it. Gassing Station | Watches | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff