AT vs Winter tyres as an all-rounder?

[C70R]

I'm moving to the countryside, so I'm buying a budget (~£4k) 4x4 for all-rounder duties. The first thing I'll be doing, as I do with most cars, is treating it to a nice, new set of rubber.

However, I'm at a bit of a quandry. I want to run one set of tyres all year round, and they will be used for a mix of country lane driving, town driving, towing, long motorway runs, and the occasional slog up a muddy lane or across a muddy field.

My initial thought was that a M+S rated winter tyre would offer the best compromise, and be quiet enough that it wouldn't annoy on longer motorway drives. However, I worry I'm likely to find that "M+S" is a bit of a marketing gimmick. Even though my actual off-road use would be fairly limited (maybe some VERY gentle greenlaning at most), I'd be annoyed to be limited by tyres on the occasion that I need them.

Would something like an Avon AX7 AT tyre be as good all-round as a mid-range winter tyre? Or are they too aggressive for occasional use, and the motorway drone (and road 'handling') be too much of a compromise for the odd time I drive on a bit of mud?

[C70R]

SlimJim16v said:

Winter tyres aren't an all-rounder, you're thinking of all seasons. M+S is used to describe a tyre with a slightly off-road tread pattern.

Most all-seasons will be pretty useless off-road, so I would go for an AT that is 3PMS snow rated. You can look at the tread pattern and choose how much you want it biased to road or off-road.

I was thinking more than winter tyres might be more of an all-rounder than ATs for my use, rather than the ultimate all-rounder.

Winters will be fine to run all year round on a heavy, slow 4x4, right?

[C70R]

300bhp/ton said:

What vehicle is it for?

Winters can be fine all year round. But you can tear them up if you are hard in the corners. They will also get out of their depth in mid quite quickly and be more prone to punctures off road.

A good All Terrain should provide sufficient traction in snowy conditions to allow you to get from place to place. But the milder more Road biased ones generally offer less traction in the snow than more aggressive AT’s. Likewise off road an AT will be superior to a winter. But a mild AT can quickly become a liability in mud. Other terrain types an AT can work very well however.

Do you know the terrain or soil types you’d drive on or the part of the country you are in?

I probably go AT myself over winters. But would depend on a few factors. We have winters on the Freelander, they are ok in summer laning. But I wouldn’t take them in deep wet mud or lane in winter with them.

Car is TBC. Possibly a 4.7 WJ or a petrol Touareg. X5 is an outside bet.

Needs to be ulez compliant for trips to our place in London, which limits choice badly at that price.

Does the choice of car make a big difference to the choice of tyre?

The house is in Norfolk, which has varied soil but lots of clay. As said, I've no ambitions of plugging through deep mud. I just need something that can get me down a muddy lane or two in winter.

[C70R]

Bill said:

My D4 came with Goodyear Ultragrip winters on and I used them all year for a while, including an off-road competition with a trials section where I did as well as any other lwb vehicle. They also didn't wear any quicker than the current Pirellis are.

The main issue is getting hold of spares mid summer if you have a puncture that can't be fixed or if they wear out. And they're expensive.

This is sort of what I'd hoped to hear. Lots of tales of people managing just fine on winters and not getting stuck on muddy lanes and the like.

[C70R]

InitialDave said:

If you do get a WJ, try and hunt out an Overland, they have the more powerful version of the 4.7 and trick diffs front and rear.

Seems overkill for what I need, but I'll bear it in mind.

[C70R]

tr7v8 said:

Worth joining the WJ forum on FB. There have been a few for sale recently there. Both V8s & I6 The 6 is a great engine & takes LPG better than the V8 Also tend to be more robust.

I've no interest in LPG, to be honest. And I don't think the 6cyl engine is ulez compliant. It came as a bit of a shock that the 4.7 was, to be honest - but the tfl website confirmed it.

[C70R]

So is the synopsis that I'm better off going all the way to an AT tyre as an insurance policy should I need it?

And, if I were to buy something like an X5 for example, would an AT really be suitable for long motorway runs?

I think the Touareg is the favourite at the moment, because it combines the best compromise of off-road (low range, locking diffs) and on road (low nvh, nice interior) characteristics. The problem is that finding a good one is going to take some time. I'd love a 4.2, but they just seem too rare to be viable, so I'm probably stuck with the 3.2 vr6 lump.

[C70R]

camel_landy said:

A winter tyre is more about the rubber compound (silica content and sticky below 7c) and the tread patterns are designed for better water dispersal.

Either way, tyre choice is ALWAYS about compromise.

FWIW - I find that running 2x sets is the way to go.

M

I get the idea of running two sets, but I'm not going to plan in advance to have a 'day' where I need to drive across a muddy field - it will just happen. I need one set to do everything, so I need an idea of how much of a compromise I'm making of winter vs AT.

I don't really need winters from the perspective of snow and ice driving - East Anglia has pretty mild winter months. I was just wondering if the slightly less aggressive tread pattern would make a better day-to-day compromise for the odd occasion I need to drive off-road.

[C70R]

Bill said:

C70R said:

East Anglia has pretty mild winter months.

I'd ignore winters as an option purely because of the potential for sourcing hassle and expense. There are loads of less off road biased tyres that are M+S rated (FWIW, AIUI it just means a greater percentage of the tyre is gap rather than tread...) that will be less of a compromise than a winter or full AT tyre.

Thanks. Are you referring to 'all-season' tyres?

[C70R]

InitialDave said:

Presumably whatever you buy will come with fairly mild road tyres.

So why not give it a drive in the kind of terrain you'll be crossing when you get it.

If it copes fine, clearly an all-round road tyre is ok for your needs.

If it's a bit dicey, you can justify stepping up to something a little more aggressive.

At this end of the car buying spectrum, my expectations are low. I'll probably end up with a mishmash of budget road tyres.

[C70R]

camel_landy said:

IMO - It sounds like you're more looking at the split between highway driving vs town & occasional field. Whatever you choose, I'd suggest avoiding anything wide, as narrow gives a better 'bite' in a softer surface. (eg On a RaRo, Pirelli Scorpions 275s are hopeless but 255s are surprisingly capable, even in soft stuff.)

I'd also suggest that a bit of training & practice will help too, as that'll help balance out compromises you're making in the tyre department (momentum is your friend ).

M

This is going to be very much a car about comfort.

I'll be fitting the smallest wheels I can get away with, and have no desire for steamroller tyre sizes!

[C70R]

So, I feel like we've had a bit of scope creep here.

I'm not going to be "regularly" driving on mud. It's probably going to make up less than 2% of the total miles covered in this car.

I just want a set of tyres that aren't going to be next to useless when I get there, and aren't going to make the 98% of non-mud miles a misery.

[C70R]

Bill said:

However the only "oh st" moments I've had (since I grew up and stopped driving like a knob anyway! ) have been braking in the wet on ATs.

You see, this is the kind of compromise that doesn't seem worth it to me for the sake of >2% of driving.

[C70R]

Walter Sobchak said:

C70R said:

So is the synopsis that I'm better off going all the way to an AT tyre as an insurance policy should I need it?

And, if I were to buy something like an X5 for example, would an AT really be suitable for long motorway runs?

I think the Touareg is the favourite at the moment, because it combines the best compromise of off-road (low range, locking diffs) and on road (low nvh, nice interior) characteristics. The problem is that finding a good one is going to take some time. I'd love a 4.2, but they just seem too rare to be viable, so I'm probably stuck with the 3.2 vr6 lump.

Don’t discount the mk1 Cayenne either, you might be able to get an early 4.5S V8 in budget?, very similar car to the Touareg and finding a V8 is a bit easier!.

I'm absolutely discounting the V8 Cayenne. Far too many horror stories.

[C70R]

FiF said:

C70R said:

Bill said:

However the only "oh st" moments I've had (since I grew up and stopped driving like a knob anyway! ) have been braking in the wet on ATs.

You see, this is the kind of compromise that doesn't seem worth it to me for the sake of >2% of driving.

Equally on a narrow lane, meet oncoming traffic, put two wheels up on the grass verge and with winters / all season the ABS on that side triggers very easily. Which tells you something.

That feels, to me, like a better compromise than having little/no grip when doing an emergency stop on a wet motorway.

[C70R]

Walter Sobchak said:

C70R said:

I'm absolutely discounting the V8 Cayenne. Far too many horror stories.

They’re alright if you get the Turbo, it’s only the NA V8 that can implode.
Although speaking from experience, they are absolutely horrific on fuel, even by big petrol 4x4 standards.

That's great, and all. But it's about as relevant to my meagre budget as recommending a Unimog.

[C70R]

Well, I blew the budget and ended up with a rare petrol V8 Discovery 3. I fitted a set of Avon AX7 ATs which have behaved very well on the road so far. I haven't had the chance to take it on the muddy bits yet, but will report back when I do.