Ex 205 challenge car good or bad idea
Discussion
Ok so, as per the title, talk me out of it. I've been doing some historic road rallies with hrcr and stuff. Not loads just a couple as a fun thing to do with my 71 1275gt and the other half as a nav.
It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
Yeah I think you are summing up what I already thought. As much as I'd like to have a look at some stage events it's not worth the cost, when targas are so much more accessible.
The stage thought only went through my head when I started looking for a 205 that was historic eligible and the one that turned up was logbooked. I'll prob still head that way and simply make it compliant with the historic road regs and use it for targas also and possible some 12 cars.
The seats definitely only have a 5 (think now 7) year life span, it's the cage I'm unsure about if it's fit as per current regs is it still compliant, as I'd like to keep the car logbooked if I can.
Navs I'd be ok for most of the time as it would be the other half, and mates with spanners id manage too as my brother is a fabrication welder and more than a little keen for building/rebuilding a stage car.
All that said the money involved puts me off, I'll wait and see if the new motorsport uk regime brings any difference but if not I'll just use it for targas etc.
The stage thought only went through my head when I started looking for a 205 that was historic eligible and the one that turned up was logbooked. I'll prob still head that way and simply make it compliant with the historic road regs and use it for targas also and possible some 12 cars.
The seats definitely only have a 5 (think now 7) year life span, it's the cage I'm unsure about if it's fit as per current regs is it still compliant, as I'd like to keep the car logbooked if I can.
Navs I'd be ok for most of the time as it would be the other half, and mates with spanners id manage too as my brother is a fabrication welder and more than a little keen for building/rebuilding a stage car.
All that said the money involved puts me off, I'll wait and see if the new motorsport uk regime brings any difference but if not I'll just use it for targas etc.
Thanks for the reply, funny you should mention another shell and shells being tired, I have found a nice rolling shell that has a 10poont omp cage available with it, it's not historic age though, I have found a donar car that is but I think reshelling cars is basically now considered ringing. But it would be eligible for historic 4b stage rallying butnot historic road rallies till the reg changed again which could be years I guess.
We both have national b non race licenses as we need them for the road rallies, the other half is Norwegian so I'll need to check with msuk if that creates an additional problem, as for the non race nat b I had to get her federation to release her. It basically cost me £120 for her license rather than £50!!
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
We both have national b non race licenses as we need them for the road rallies, the other half is Norwegian so I'll need to check with msuk if that creates an additional problem, as for the non race nat b I had to get her federation to release her. It basically cost me £120 for her license rather than £50!!
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
Thanks for the replies, the 205 is definitely appealing, mainly due to its 1985 age and the ability to allow lots of options for events. In all honesty the mini would not take much to get to stage spec, but again I'm mindful that I don't want to accelerate it's killing. That and I can only imagine to work involved keeping it maintained whilst using it as a stage car
Im guessing the 205gti should only appreciate in value over then next 10-15 years. Even a ropey ex stage car.
Galveston I think the regs have changed. I was reading the Roger Albert Clarke 2wd championship sup regs and that says that they get to run first on the roads and I believe that the MSA changed the regs last year to revise the fastest first stage running order, meaning the older smaller cars get the benefit of a smoother stage and aren't just sat in ruts, multiple use stages however will still see you sat in the ruts I guess.
Is there any ability to rent the gear for the event. I'm quite happy to put the seats harnesses in and seat rails etc so that it's all in date and renew the fire extinguishers etc. But a suit helmet and hans is still going to be £800 each. If we could rent them for a couple events that would be good as it'd mean my brother could co drive and my other half.
The car I have found has an fia historic cage in it, which was fine, but now isn't as it has no harness bar. We can easily get some cds tube and fit one, however I thought I'd read somewhere that if you modified it then it wasn't legal to use and the scruits wouldn't pass it. Read the blue book and I can't see why you can't alter them as long as you do it within the guidelines laid out? My brother is a fabrication welder so doing it correctly isn't a problem, unless the scruits are going to say it is. We could always just make up a harness bar that is standalone from the cage I guess.
Velocemitch your right, there are some spec aspects that will need reverting to make it historic compliant, it's got a 1.9 rear beam with discs on it, the 84-85 1.6gtis has drums only on the rear, also it's got a hydraulic handbrake so that'll need to come off for targas. But that's about it from what I can see and gather. It's a bit of a project but it's got the majority of the right bits. It just needs some Tlc and sorting out.
I think I have managed to move on a project that I don't think I would have gotten round to doing anytime soon to free up some space and give me some cash towards the 205. So my partly restored 1992 Mini Cooper is going, it's a shame as it's one of the last carb'd mini coopers ever made before they all moved over the spi. So I think one day I may look at what they are worth and curse myself but needs must.
I'm heading home now after being away at my other halves family for Christmas in Norway so hopefully the mini will get collected before I go back to work on the 3rd and I can go grab the 205 a week or so after that. What I'll use it for most is still up for debate but having loads of options is nice.
Birthday in march, think I'll ask for my bars test!
Im guessing the 205gti should only appreciate in value over then next 10-15 years. Even a ropey ex stage car.
Galveston I think the regs have changed. I was reading the Roger Albert Clarke 2wd championship sup regs and that says that they get to run first on the roads and I believe that the MSA changed the regs last year to revise the fastest first stage running order, meaning the older smaller cars get the benefit of a smoother stage and aren't just sat in ruts, multiple use stages however will still see you sat in the ruts I guess.
Is there any ability to rent the gear for the event. I'm quite happy to put the seats harnesses in and seat rails etc so that it's all in date and renew the fire extinguishers etc. But a suit helmet and hans is still going to be £800 each. If we could rent them for a couple events that would be good as it'd mean my brother could co drive and my other half.
The car I have found has an fia historic cage in it, which was fine, but now isn't as it has no harness bar. We can easily get some cds tube and fit one, however I thought I'd read somewhere that if you modified it then it wasn't legal to use and the scruits wouldn't pass it. Read the blue book and I can't see why you can't alter them as long as you do it within the guidelines laid out? My brother is a fabrication welder so doing it correctly isn't a problem, unless the scruits are going to say it is. We could always just make up a harness bar that is standalone from the cage I guess.
Velocemitch your right, there are some spec aspects that will need reverting to make it historic compliant, it's got a 1.9 rear beam with discs on it, the 84-85 1.6gtis has drums only on the rear, also it's got a hydraulic handbrake so that'll need to come off for targas. But that's about it from what I can see and gather. It's a bit of a project but it's got the majority of the right bits. It just needs some Tlc and sorting out.
I think I have managed to move on a project that I don't think I would have gotten round to doing anytime soon to free up some space and give me some cash towards the 205. So my partly restored 1992 Mini Cooper is going, it's a shame as it's one of the last carb'd mini coopers ever made before they all moved over the spi. So I think one day I may look at what they are worth and curse myself but needs must.
I'm heading home now after being away at my other halves family for Christmas in Norway so hopefully the mini will get collected before I go back to work on the 3rd and I can go grab the 205 a week or so after that. What I'll use it for most is still up for debate but having loads of options is nice.
Birthday in march, think I'll ask for my bars test!
Ta, I've had a read through, and it's quite a read and I think I agree, the 205 challenge worked as buying a shell and resheling a bent car was a cheap and easy thing to do, now buying a shell for a 205 is not going to be done in a few days.
The one thing that puts me off and makes think I'll just do targas and historic road rallies in it is that the cost to even get to the start of a rally is too much and I don't see value for money in it, this isn't from someone who has never done motorsport I have competed in motorsport since I was 5 years old every year for till now and I'm 33. I'll happily go away road racing from Thursday night to Sunday night/Monday morning and spend £5-600 quid just on the racing side of it, ignoring the food and associated costs that go with it as a minimum, but the costs for rallying versus the mileage and number of stages I think would leave me fairly dissatisfied.
When the challenge was running what was the cost of the equipment you needed and was there a bars test equivalent that was required?
The one thing that puts me off and makes think I'll just do targas and historic road rallies in it is that the cost to even get to the start of a rally is too much and I don't see value for money in it, this isn't from someone who has never done motorsport I have competed in motorsport since I was 5 years old every year for till now and I'm 33. I'll happily go away road racing from Thursday night to Sunday night/Monday morning and spend £5-600 quid just on the racing side of it, ignoring the food and associated costs that go with it as a minimum, but the costs for rallying versus the mileage and number of stages I think would leave me fairly dissatisfied.
When the challenge was running what was the cost of the equipment you needed and was there a bars test equivalent that was required?
Ok I have been looking at sorting the MSA log book out and changing the ownership etc.
Anyway the current MSA logbook will run out 31st dec 2020, so I need to get a new passport for the car. Is this just a straight transfer of the current logbook to a passport and get the scruit to sign it off and send it in? or does its spec need updating to the current regs?
I know I'll have to sort the fire extinguishers out but the scruit can just say it needs compliant seats and harnesses it does not actually need them in at the time the passport is applied for it just needs to be ready for them (according to the scruit passport guidance notes)
The car was originally logbooked in 1996 and was compliant then, it wont be now as I think the fixings and ROPS dia has changed since then. So how do historic MSA log booked cars get transferred onto the passport system?
I have rung Motorsport UK today and they were not able to really tell me, and said to contact my local scruit, which i have also done, but not heard back as of yet.
Anyway the current MSA logbook will run out 31st dec 2020, so I need to get a new passport for the car. Is this just a straight transfer of the current logbook to a passport and get the scruit to sign it off and send it in? or does its spec need updating to the current regs?
I know I'll have to sort the fire extinguishers out but the scruit can just say it needs compliant seats and harnesses it does not actually need them in at the time the passport is applied for it just needs to be ready for them (according to the scruit passport guidance notes)
The car was originally logbooked in 1996 and was compliant then, it wont be now as I think the fixings and ROPS dia has changed since then. So how do historic MSA log booked cars get transferred onto the passport system?
I have rung Motorsport UK today and they were not able to really tell me, and said to contact my local scruit, which i have also done, but not heard back as of yet.
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