MSUK licence now mandatory for all events
Discussion
So this is a new one from MSUK in their effort to help Grass Roots motorsport they have now decided you can no longer enter club level events on production of a club membership card alone. All will need to hold a an MSUK 'Clubmans RS' licence, even those who are non competing passengers.
The new licence will be free, but in my view its still going to put many off.
Just to add insult to injury the permit fees are going up a flat rate of £5.00 all round too, which is quite a chunk, for instance each entry on a Car trial in 2019 paid £4.85, next year it rises to £9.85.
So this is all a good idea how then Mr Chambers?????
The new licence will be free, but in my view its still going to put many off.
Just to add insult to injury the permit fees are going up a flat rate of £5.00 all round too, which is quite a chunk, for instance each entry on a Car trial in 2019 paid £4.85, next year it rises to £9.85.
So this is all a good idea how then Mr Chambers?????
Kraken said:
What club level racing are you talking about that you could enter with no license? Autocross or something?
Hundreds of events are organised by MSuk motor clubs each year that do not require a licence under the current system for example;Car Trials
Autotest
2 car Rallies
Navigational scatters
Some Navigational Rallies
Most Targa Rallies
Even some of the most prestigious Historic Road Rallies do not require a competition licence, for example HERO's RAC Rally of the Tests, its closed to members of HERO therefore does not require a licence.
On the more expensive events an extra £5.00 on the entry fee won't have much affect, but most clubs only charge about £10-1 for an autotest or car trial, this means a £5.00 increase is very significant.
Kraken said:
Grumbly said:
I get the impression the MSA is anti club motorsport in general. The kit car class in our local sprints, which was once a very popular class is now devoid of entries, due the the changes in roll over bar rules. My car was only used a few times a year and it's simply not worth the expense to upgrade.
There's no such thing as the MSA anymore. MSUK is very much in favour of club racing and have made changes in that regard. Problem is people only remember the negative changes and not the positive ones. Also I read many times on Facebook in particular about people mistaking rule proposals for actual changes. It’s the disproportionate affect which annoys me and many others who are involved at the most grass roots level.
We don’t pay and have never paid a licence fee to be clerks of course on events, right up to national B Road Rally, only on a stage event does a clerks licence come in. Scrutineering for the larger events are paid expenses, they tend to be the only ones who are, the rest of us do it for love !
Insurance has gone up and the UK does appear to have escaped the worst of this so far, Ireland is much harder hit. But a flat increase in permit fees is massively out of proportion, it will double the permit cost of a clubnight Autotest or Car trial. Adding the same figure to the permit cost of a Hillclimb is a much smaller percentage.
The RS licence is just data gathering and a way of increasing the apparent size and influence of MSUk relative to other sporting bodies. As far as insurance is concerned once you are signed on to an event and have club membership you are already insured.
We don’t pay and have never paid a licence fee to be clerks of course on events, right up to national B Road Rally, only on a stage event does a clerks licence come in. Scrutineering for the larger events are paid expenses, they tend to be the only ones who are, the rest of us do it for love !
Insurance has gone up and the UK does appear to have escaped the worst of this so far, Ireland is much harder hit. But a flat increase in permit fees is massively out of proportion, it will double the permit cost of a clubnight Autotest or Car trial. Adding the same figure to the permit cost of a Hillclimb is a much smaller percentage.
The RS licence is just data gathering and a way of increasing the apparent size and influence of MSUk relative to other sporting bodies. As far as insurance is concerned once you are signed on to an event and have club membership you are already insured.
Duke Caboom said:
I thin its good, in that, as I understand it, the next level of motorsport up, from autotests etc, will also have a free license in stead of paying for a non-race national B. This will allow people to have a go at things like sprinting, especially as I now thing the suit laws have also been relaxed.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - this is as I understood it from social media!
I think you are wrong as far as i can work out the Clubman RS licence will only cover events that you could have done on a Club Card previously. You will still need the club card anyway. I believe you will need the Interclub licence for Speed events which is the equivalent of Nat B Non Race. I'd check but as far as i can see MSuk have just pulled all the documentation off the website.... I wonder why!!Please correct me if I'm wrong - this is as I understood it from social media!
On the Rally side as appose to the speed side, the organisors have mostly already had the option of running an event as a Clubman or a National B. Many used the clubman permit anyway, those that didn't tended to use Nat B because it was mandatory if the event formed part of a championship. i expect that will stay the same, but I have asked the question.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
I've just finished watching the MUK video announcement one this and read up on the new types of licences.
First thoughts are - I like it.
No more medicals until you are 60, which is massively convenient to me as I am 46 in January - so I win on that rule change.
The day licence clubman RS thing is not a real problem, it just a change that yet again the old boys in the motor clubs want to resist........
I genuinely can't see the issue in a £5 increase in permit fees, on the overall cost of the day it is nothing, whilst the entry fee may double, all the other costs remain the same. Even the lowliest auto test would probably cost £50 in total to compete in once you factor in travel fuel, competition fuel, sandwiches and everything else.
that's not to say that the MUK couldn't improve other aspects, such as lifing of safety equipment such as fire ex, or belts. I'd also like to see a more modern approach to scrutineering where all cars have a log book and the details of which are held centrally so that you can be scrutineered via the entry form rather than turning up a 730am to have your car poked about a bit.
Well I might be counted as one of the old boys in the motor club, but clearly you aren’t quite seeing this from the same angle as me.First thoughts are - I like it.
No more medicals until you are 60, which is massively convenient to me as I am 46 in January - so I win on that rule change.
The day licence clubman RS thing is not a real problem, it just a change that yet again the old boys in the motor clubs want to resist........
I genuinely can't see the issue in a £5 increase in permit fees, on the overall cost of the day it is nothing, whilst the entry fee may double, all the other costs remain the same. Even the lowliest auto test would probably cost £50 in total to compete in once you factor in travel fuel, competition fuel, sandwiches and everything else.
that's not to say that the MUK couldn't improve other aspects, such as lifing of safety equipment such as fire ex, or belts. I'd also like to see a more modern approach to scrutineering where all cars have a log book and the details of which are held centrally so that you can be scrutineered via the entry form rather than turning up a 730am to have your car poked about a bit.
Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Thursday 7th November 20:50
The £5.00 additional permit fee will more than double the fee currently paid by our club for each competitor on our club night events. We run about 10 to 12 events a year and we have been getting roughly 20 entrants, our entry fee is £12.00, it doesn’t quite cover costs if we add in the cost of the Trophies for class winners. We accept we will make a slight loss subsidised by other club activities, our two Motor Cycle Trials being the most ‘profitable’. Adding the £5.00 will mean we have to pass that on, so the entry fee will rise.
We did the calculation, if we don’t pass on the extra £5 at the end of the year the club will loose just over £1700.00 from this rise alone.
As I pointed out to our friends in the letter I wrote MSUk today, £5:00 is a tiny amount relative to the cost of a days circuit racing, I’m not even going to try and work out the percentage. As you might see from the figures above £5:00 is a massive increase when applied to a car trial permit, in fact its more than 100%. This is from an organisation which is supposed to be committed to grass roots motor sport.
Then there’s the situation with RS licences, many of our club members are getting on a bit now, over 60, and often on a cocktail of drugs which are fine to drive their cars on the public road, but probably not fine to even sit as a passenger in a field as someone drives them up a grass bank, when they fill in the declaration.
Or there’s the ones that want to try and encourage friends or family members to come out and have a play in the cars for a cheap bit of motorsport, they are going to have to bring a licence along now. Or more probably a filled in form and a photograph and leave it up to somebody on one of the hard pressed organising teams to send of for them.
Time will tell how this will actually pan out, but I can be pretty sure we will see a decline in our entries for events, just at a time when we are at the tipping point of having to scrub many for various reasons.
Just as an aside and to give people a feeling of how the anger is bubbling within the clubs.
There used to be a group of MSA 'officials' which ran the 'Go Motorsport' initiative, their brief was to boost grass roots motorsport and they were working quite hard towards it and making some headway. For no apparent reason MSUK stopped it about three months ago and ended the contract with those individuals, to the surprise of those involved, nothing replaced it.
On a more local level, Hugh Chambers attended our area association meeting in October, he was full of encouraging remarks about how he was instigating new ideas that were specifically targeting the growth of grass roots to bring new blood, particularly young blood into the sport. It left those in attendance in a really optimistic mood.
Roughly a week later this happens, which appears to be the direct opposite of what was discussed. I know we are not the only club who are very disappointed about this, I also know that practically every other club in the area have written to MSUK mostly via the area association and I know that the Chairman of that association spent pretty much the whole day fending off phone calls and emails and talking direct to MSUK. Some clubs have stated it may be the end for them as the type of event they have been running will probably suffer quite badly. Some of the bigger clubs (the 4x4 guys for instance) have served notice upon MSUK that they will be leaving their umbrella and going their own way. They do have the legal right to run events without MSUK, but not many organisations do.
Do not underestimate how much this has annoyed and disenfranchised many people within the organising levels of the sport.
There used to be a group of MSA 'officials' which ran the 'Go Motorsport' initiative, their brief was to boost grass roots motorsport and they were working quite hard towards it and making some headway. For no apparent reason MSUK stopped it about three months ago and ended the contract with those individuals, to the surprise of those involved, nothing replaced it.
On a more local level, Hugh Chambers attended our area association meeting in October, he was full of encouraging remarks about how he was instigating new ideas that were specifically targeting the growth of grass roots to bring new blood, particularly young blood into the sport. It left those in attendance in a really optimistic mood.
Roughly a week later this happens, which appears to be the direct opposite of what was discussed. I know we are not the only club who are very disappointed about this, I also know that practically every other club in the area have written to MSUK mostly via the area association and I know that the Chairman of that association spent pretty much the whole day fending off phone calls and emails and talking direct to MSUK. Some clubs have stated it may be the end for them as the type of event they have been running will probably suffer quite badly. Some of the bigger clubs (the 4x4 guys for instance) have served notice upon MSUK that they will be leaving their umbrella and going their own way. They do have the legal right to run events without MSUK, but not many organisations do.
Do not underestimate how much this has annoyed and disenfranchised many people within the organising levels of the sport.
We all know this is insurance driven, but as is not exactly unusual for MSUk, their response is out of proportion. A flat increase of the same figure on every permit seems like a pretty silly approach to the problem. Especially when it is quite obvious that will hit the low budget side of the sport hardest. It’s also pretty obvious that those types of event are the least likely to end up with a large claim!.
Drumroll said:
carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
True, but I bet you would struggle to get insurance for auto tests etc that tend to use car parks etc as cheaply as MUK do.When the extended the act to give the powers to prosecute drivers speeding on private land etc such as car parks ( from the time when the Cruze meets got popular) certain organisations were granted permission to allow them to voided for the purpose of motorsport. MSA obviously did, but I’m told so did the Land Rover club. They are now talking about breaking away from MSUk to run their comp safari’s and Hill Rallies etc outside of MSUK.
Not sure how Javelin do it, but expect as they usually use a licensed motorsport facility it’s not a problem.
As I mentioned the Land Rover club are on the list and they are big enough and specialist enough to run on their own, so I think that will happen. The Motor Cycle clubs are already separate and go their own way. The Traction engine club might be a bit of stretch.... Bear in mind also anything being run on the public road, even non competitive links like Targa and Stage rallying can only be organised by MSUK as they are the only one allowed under the old RTA from decades ago.
I do think MSUK should keep the grass roots side and my feeling is its all about balance, they have applied extra costs evenly rather than proportionately and few of the savings like other areas might be seeing apply.
I do think MSUK should keep the grass roots side and my feeling is its all about balance, they have applied extra costs evenly rather than proportionately and few of the savings like other areas might be seeing apply.
300bhp/ton said:
Kraken said:
Nothing extra for it? I take it you don't read the MSUK newsletters then?
Ok, enlighten me. What will I be getting extra?A few discounts at places we normally get discounts from anyway, insurance cover on RS licences that we already had with a club card, increased value on those insurances agreed, but for the vast majority this will not become relevant as they will never claim. Some officials wont have to pay for their licences, but those at grass roots level never did anyway.
I think my own personal costs to compete this year will probably rise by about £100.00 in direct fees to MSUK. I can live with it, but I probably sped about £1500.00 already, so its not a massive hike. The problem as i see it is there are many people at club level who probably only spend about £100.00 a year currently, they will likely face a similar rise, so in effect it will double their costs, plus they will have to apply for a licence.
Graham said:
Allan L said:
There was a time when the folk who controlled UK's motorsport were current participants, or retired from participating in the sport they controlled.
IIRC Hugh Chambers current head of msauk IS a current club level racer in an fia spec MGB in equipe GTS..I must admit to be being mildly narked that my licence renewal has gone up by £50, a chunk of change when i only have time for 2-3 events at the moment. My licence, club membership and champ/series fees are now £4-500 quid before I even enter a race...
peterperkins said:
You could organise your own stuff and not have licenses, or insurance etc etc if you wished.
Everyone signs a massive disclaimer and you all just get on with it.
No involvement with MSUK etc..
Yeah right course you can, Macdonalds Car Park would be good wouldn’t it.Everyone signs a massive disclaimer and you all just get on with it.
No involvement with MSUK etc..
I guess we will find out over the next few years, but as an organiser, competitor and club official most of the feedback I have had from grass roots competitors is that most of the changes have been negative.
As for the financial side, it’s been known for a while that the insurance issue is becoming a real problem, this appears to have driven the need to increase the cost to compete. I think MSUK are being quite disingenuous to say they are moving away from a pay up front basis to a pay as you play model. In truth they have increased costs at both ends.
The permit cost increase is the biggest hit, that will not be evident (yet) to those who are not involved in organising events. The daft thing is the increase will hit the grass roots events hardest. It’s being applied at a standard flat increase of the same amount.
As for the financial side, it’s been known for a while that the insurance issue is becoming a real problem, this appears to have driven the need to increase the cost to compete. I think MSUK are being quite disingenuous to say they are moving away from a pay up front basis to a pay as you play model. In truth they have increased costs at both ends.
The permit cost increase is the biggest hit, that will not be evident (yet) to those who are not involved in organising events. The daft thing is the increase will hit the grass roots events hardest. It’s being applied at a standard flat increase of the same amount.
HustleRussell said:
Those of you complaining about a fiver 
for perspective the licence changes are set to cost me an extra £54.
Don't forget the blanket increase of a fiver (on permits) is an increase per event, not a one off. I'm not sure how many race events you will do, but I will be doing as many as 20 'rally' events more if I decide to do some evening car Trials. So the increase could be at least £100.00 on top of the increase of £30.00 or so for my Licence. for perspective the licence changes are set to cost me an extra £54. Medicals don't affect me and I've never needed to pay for any licence to be clerk of course for National B rallies anyway.
I am by no means unusual as a 'grass roots' competitor on non circuit motorsport, I have no doubt at all that these new changes will hit us proportionately far harder than they will circuit racers. It will be a double whammy for 'families' who compete together as husband/wife or with their offspring.
I think you may have got the wrong end the stick there.
What MUK are saying there is they have set aside a reserve fund to cover possible claims which may still arise from previous accidents. Not to cover for future ones!.
The brand spanking new insurance deal which they have negotiated will cover those.
Health and safety is still ever present and nothing much will get any easier or cheaper in that respect.
What MUK are saying there is they have set aside a reserve fund to cover possible claims which may still arise from previous accidents. Not to cover for future ones!.
The brand spanking new insurance deal which they have negotiated will cover those.
Health and safety is still ever present and nothing much will get any easier or cheaper in that respect.
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