Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?

[Chunkychucky]

I have been attending race meetings at club level for 20+ years, predominantly run by HSCC, CTCRC or BARC. Over the years, it's disappointing to see so many of the cars I remember from years gone that have seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth. Obviously there will be some rate of attrition as older drivers retire from the sport/move on to new interests, but it's a shame not to see more cars continually campaigned in the hands of new owners. I particularly enjoy historic touring cars/historic saloon car racing, and I can probably count on 1 hand the number of cars competing with the HSCC that were running when I first started attending years ago - Mr Glaister of this Parish's Ford 100E being one such example.


I guess my question is, wtf happens to these competition cars? From experience they're not the greatest things to drive on our st excuse of a road network (potholes/speed humps, traffic jams etc.), so would have expected to see the same cars passing on to new owners and staying 'on track'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy such a car back in 2004/05 (Ivan Dutton's old Alvis Grey Lady), with the intention of competing in various events with it, however the winning bidder then proceeded to hide the car from the rest of the world... And this is just an example of a competition car I tried to buy, there are countless other examples from over the years - just have to watch recordings of the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood Revival from 1998-2010.


Granted it's probably something no one else gives a fk about, just something that has been piquing my curiosity more and more over the last decade

[Chunkychucky]

Trev450 said:

If my recent experience is anything to go by it could be something to do with the crazy values a lot of these cars are now fetching.

I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.

I did wonder if this, associated costs of parts, or even escalating entry costs/equipment costs had made a few competitors get sick and throw it in..

[Chunkychucky]

drmotorsport said:

I've been racing long enough to wonder where some folks from 20 years ago had got to. Occasionally they make an appearance a few years later when times are better, or the car (in my case) reappears years after being sold. For the most part though the car gets parked up for years on the off chance the owner wants to come back out racing again, or is broken for parts, as it's a mare trying to sell a racecar!

I agree they're not the easiest things to sell, often getting broken/split for parts to go and live on in other projects. Such a shame though, another guy I used to see race and who was a bloody good driver was called Chris Sanders, used to race a Lotus Cortina in HRSR but I believe stopped for health reasons.. Built an immaculate black Standard 10 saloon racer that I saw once at Coombe and once at Goodwood - it absolutely flew! Again though, car disappeared end of the season never to be seen again...

[Chunkychucky]

ChevronB19 said:

Thanks for the shout out - dad’s car, but we both drive it, owned and competed in since 1971, it’s not going anywhere, and is in dad’s will to me and in my will to my daughter. Although to be fair, family reasons have caused us to take a 3 year break, but we’ll be out again later this season.

Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.

As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.

Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.

The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.

Yes I recall my father and I spoke to you/your father at Silverstone priobably 20-or-so years ago now, at the time I remember being fascinated with all the history of the car and marvelling at how great it was still being used in anger

Interesting points re: stress fractures of the shells, hadn't considered that previously owing to most series stipulating the use of CR65s nowadays. As you say it seems as though historic motorsport has got more 'competitive', and subsequently expensive, over the past couple of decades - it used to be a spectacle to see a motorhome with extending sides, now at the Silverstone Classic (or other large meeting) they're very much the norm.

Yeah I agree that car wasn't built to any regs so probably why it's not been seen again on track; I always fancied it as a 'fast road car' or something to use in hillclimbs/trackdays and sprints, loved the look of it with the body dropped so much over those Borrani wire wheels - perfection...

[Chunkychucky]

Absolutely, I feel this is something that has had a scary effect on costs/barriers to entry. In theory following a universal set of regulations is a good idea, however when you have a competitor building 2 Falcon Sprint historic touring cars, one with fully rosejointed/adjustable arms etc and testing it to find the perfect set up, then having the solid arms heated/bent to the same angles on the FIA 'Appendix K' car, it all gets a bit silly in terms of costs unfortunately Same guy also had a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina, from memory with a full exhaust system made from Inconel so that it measured the same external diameter as regulations stipulated, but obviously had far thinner walls so a greater internal volume..

[Chunkychucky]

ChevronB19 said:

Sadly it is more and more common. We finished 4th o/a at Goodwood in 2002. We haven’t changed the spec of the car (no cash), but the most recent race we would’ve been 3rd last. Incremental gains by very rich people.

Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).

Edited by ChevronB19 on Monday 20th June 11:38

Yeah as you say the increase of pace at the Revival is mad - an Austin A40 doing 1:35s? Granted it was driven by Andrew Jordan and developed within an inch of its life, but still that lap time probably would have been a reasonable effort for the RAC TT back in 2002! I unfortunately embarked on an Austin A35 build, which being a 50s car doesn't have any Appendix K regulations, and as such means I now have a moneypit that can run once every 2 years at the Goodwood Revival, or be altered to run in other series - be nice if Thurgood could have based his regulations on an actual series as opposed to doing his own thing for the 5 races a year the HRDC organise, but there we are!

The 1990 series was funny with BMW and Alfa Romeo throwing works-backed efforts with works drivers out against the amateur club racers - got the race on Betamax tape somewhere...! Not quite sure why the manufacturers bothered and as pointed out this was probably the start of an escalation in costs and 'development'. I think it's to the detriment of the races as although the action is still close and great to watch, 'Formula Lotus Cortina' is a bit bland... My dream historic touring car is a '63 Galaxie Fastback, it would probably run out of brakes after 5 minutes but I wouldn't care...

[Chunkychucky]

Keep it stiff said:

Julius has floated the idea of kicking pre-57 back into life but dependent of course on the appetite of owners to fill a grid. If you have a saloon that might fit into this do let him know.

I might have done 10-or-so years ago before buying most parts Rae Davis Racing/Peter May Engineering offer, as it is i'm that far down the 'Speedwell Class' path in terms of time and thousands spent, i'm loathe to go changing parts/throwing bits away before the car has even turned a wheel.

HRDC would be nice if it was run as a series/championship with a few regular rounds, as it is with one round a month/every 6 weeks and no sort of points system or incentive to do all the rounds, i'm unsure whether to get a load of fibreglass panels and just do the HRSR series that run with the HSCC, at least they have a few decent meetings.

[Chunkychucky]

emicen said:

A40s are available to buy from JRT as customer cars. Not cheap, right enough…

Is your A35 to Academy regs? I’m sure one of my in-laws racecars ended up racing there, the other still doing Revival.

I probably should have done to be fair, but I built it to the 'Speedwell' class regulations. At the time the Academy class first began the cars weren't allowed LSDs, which to me just seemed daft/dangerous and resulted in a number of rollover crashes in that first season. That and the fact that the cars were allowed a number of fibreglass panels, when i'd already restored/lightened all the original metal panels, kind of steered me down the Speedwell class route.

[Chunkychucky]

bucksmanuk said:

I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.

Great to get another informed point of view, agreed with points made including Championships vs Series.

Living in North Yorkshire most circuits are leagues away (aside from Croft, Oulton/Cadwell being similar distances), not a lot of use when as stated a few of the series mostly choose to race at circuits down South.

I feel there is an appetite for a pre-60s touring car series owing to the amount of cars that manage to turn up every other year for the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood, however possibly with some more sensible/watertight regulations and some more-controlled costs. I can see why people can't be bothered though, as an example for my car to race at an HRDC round i'd have to pay some exorbitant annual membership fee to the HRDC (£250 or £500, fking stupid either way) and then pay £600-or-so for a practice/45 minute race session at somewhere like Lydden Hill? Add in the mandatory fresh set of tyres required after a visit to Lydden/travelling expenses of getting all the way down there, and ~£1500 to race at a circuit that IMO is fking boring means my car stays in the garage

Honestly unsure what would help entice owner/drivers club racers back out to the circuit, whether it be:
- differently-written technical regulations
- cheaper barrier costs (membership, race fees etc.)
- visiting better circuits (Oulton Park, Cadwell Park, Anglesey etc?)

It's a shame as it's something I love, and seeing grids of cars drop from 20+ spread across all classes to in some instances series struggling to scrape a grid of 10 cars together is depressing

[Chunkychucky]

emicen said:

If anyone from the classics realm is interested in getting their cars out probably as cheaply as possible, the Scottish Motor Racing Club are at Cadwell on the 16th July.

The classic sports & saloons fits most anything in to a class. Club membership and a guest entry would be about £350. Reckon you’ll struggle to race for less.

Good to know, thanks for the tip - Cadwell Park too...

[Chunkychucky]

bucksmanuk said:

IMHO – or what it’s worth
Technical regulations written a lot better would improve matters.
How do you stop someone spending £60K on a Mk2 Golf championship?
Why does a front row Mini Miglia cost £100K+ to build?

Real case
When the regulations state “an OEM camshaft must be used”…. this really opens Pandora’s box. Yet the regs show……
1. There is no part number stated for what is an OEM camshaft.
2. There are no lift/duration numbers given.
3. There is no drawing to refer to.
4. There are no tolerances apparent, although this could be accomplished by stating absolute maximum values for (2)

Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?

I also think that the championship organisers with the motor racing clubs have to stand up and be counted. Brands Hatch costs £10K/day to run – every single day - whether racing or track days occur or not. It’s thought the most profitable events they do are track days. There is a suspicion that track days are now subsiding racing.

BUT – if there aren’t any spectators in the stands who have paid their £15 to be there, compared to let’s say 5,000 people for a decent clubbie at £12 each- that makes a massive difference to the bottom line for a meeting. Even if half of them were children getting in for free, that’s still £30K in gate money.

BUT - people aren’t going to turn up to see races/ championships that are dull to watch. 3 years ago, I watched 4 LMP cars go round Brands Hatch for an hour – strewth! Luckily it coincided with my lunchtime, so I missed most of it…. There are some championships that I just won’t watch as its always so very, very dull. No names obviously…

All great points, and had to chuckle at the comment about 4 LMP cars, I had the pleasure of watching a race for GT40s (on the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit of all places) in October last year - 5 cars on the grid.... After the first couple of laps it was deathly boring watching the front 2 do battle, and the remaining 3 cars pottering about on their own.

"Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?" - this fragment intrigued me, as i'd happily take a cut in costs/outright laptime if it resulted in closer-matched cars, and thus better racing. I think if the racing itself is good and the cars are reasonably interesting, then this is what people want to watch - even a one-make McLaren F1 race would be boring if there were only 3 cars on the grid. It's been noticeable over the past few years how spectators at historic club meetings seem to have dwindled over the past 10/15 years, there used to be a fair crowd stood on the banks spectating, however recently it's only been at bigger historic meetings (Silverstone Classic, Goodwood Revival etc.) that this has happened.

[Chunkychucky]

snowen250 said:

It isn't quite all doom and gloom however is it?

Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)

The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.

It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!

I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?

Simon

CTCRC is another option i'd been considering (aside from HRDC only viable option for a historic touring car), slightly annoyed the fact you have to sticker bomb your car with all their series sponsors as it hardly looks period, but I suppose a small price to pay for recent racing with reasonably-supported grids. Other annoyance was that as I wanted to share the car with my father, whichever driver did the second race would default to having to start from the back of the grid, whereas same drivers get to start from their finishing position in Race 1...bit odd!

[Chunkychucky]

Gregor Marshall said:

As a quick question, where do you think the price points should be? Not a criticism, just interested to know.

I feel as though the CTCRC is probably most in-keeping with my budget/price point, and in all honesty probably the series i'll compete in firstly to ensure my car lasts their shorter race distances before entering any HRDC events.

With Thurgood's connections and skills for marketing, why not run the HRDC series as championships? Even their entry numbers have been dropping over the past few years, for example HRDC Touring Greats used to be able to field a grid of 15-20 1950s touring cars at most meetings, now from a look at their recent results it appears as though Touring Greats is encapsulating entries from both 50s/60s on the same grids, yet not managing to get any more entries... Would this be solved by turning the HRDC races in to a series/championship? I personally would be more inclined to compete in all their rounds, however in all honesty there are only a couple of their tracks that I would want to race my car around. Lydden Hill hasn't ever appeared on the list of tracks I want to drive, and although Thruxton is a great circuit i'd just be sat there with my right foot welded to the bulkhead for 90% of the lap waiting for my engine to go BANG.

HSCC/HRSR appeals owing to the points/championship aspect, the circuits they visit, and the good close-racing that I have witnessed from that crowd over the past 20 years, but then again the costs of sourcing/prepping fibreglass panels and making the car fit their regulations comes in to it. Would be nice if Appendix K regulations had been around in 1958, but hey ho!

[Chunkychucky]

Gregor Marshall said:

Unfortunately some of these cars have got very expensive and people aren't committing to racing them, but clubs like CTCRC and HRDC are trying their best and even helping out other series buying races/grids from other clubs/championship organisers. I'm certainly no expert in it and don't know the intricate details, but that's basically it and you will see in last week’s Autosport there is an article about the surge in 1970s racing - Julius and I got 29 cars for our first races, but I have a list of 101 eligible cars that have raced in the last 5 years, so their care cars out there, it's just attracting them and hopefully with the HRDC experience and our marketing we can attract more.

I personally don't think forming a championship would make any difference for this type of racing, most are out to enjoy it and socialise and at the end of the day it's not just winning (of course it is really, but not for everyone!!). The CTCRC has introduce championship prize money and I think that has helped them a little, but it's not the be all and end all for the majority of their drivers.

Everyone has favourite tracks and bucket list tracks and all I can say is Lydden Hill has been supported by both CTCRC and HRDC over the years, as it is such a friendly place and produces great racing. Thruxton was one of my late Dad's favourite tracks and it really sorts the men out from the boys, and you can ask any racing driver that about Thruxton.

Exactly - there are cars out there, but where are they? It's a shame given how much time/money it costs to build a car for competition to just 'moth ball' it and not get out, plus it's a shame for the spectators not to have the variety of machinery and just be subjected to the usual 'Formula Lotus Cortina (replica)' that we seem to be having in historic touring cars at the moment.

I agree what Julius has done has been great for historic motorsport, just some of his regulation decisions baffle me... E.G. allowing Mk 1 Jaguars to run 3.4litre engines (as they did in period), then stipulating that they were only allowed to run up to 2668cc or something daft (2.4 litre plus an overbore of sorts), then reverting back and saying they can run 3.4 litre engines again... Must say if i'd had to pay for 2 engines to be built by someone decent like Pete Lander @ Sigma, one engine which is effectively now useless for competition, I can't say i'd be overtly happy at giving Thurgood entry fees.

As you mention I saw the CTCRC offer prize money, and that's interesting/different for historic motorsport, good for the club trying something different to the crowd. My dad raced with the Classic Saloon Car Club in the 80s run by Peter Deffee, sounds like it was a great series with more production-based classes and a fair few competitors driving their cars to the circuits. Thruxton is indeed a great circuit, however add in the wear it would take on a race A Series engine sitting mostle at max revs with considerable oil-surge with the high load corners, and the fact that after 1 practice session/1 race you need a new £750 set of Dunlop CR65s - throw-in the race fees and the HRDC membership fees you need to pay to enter, soon starts getting a bit costly for 1 and a bit hours of track time. Not sure why Lydden/Thruxton eat tyres with such veracity, not experienced anything like it elsewhere.

[Chunkychucky]

AnotherGuy said:

I can help with the part of the question that said "where are they?"

My own Group One Mk3 Escort RS1600i is in a lockup - having not made an appearance for the best part of 10 years. My previous car in that championship a Talbot Sunbeam Ti was sold to a competitor who raced it briefly before it too was assigned to a barn and has not been see since.

The why is more complicated, but lack of time (I had 2 small children), cost and perhaps more importantly the faff of it. I needed a support car with a towbar, an expensive trailer and somewhere to store it all at home. Turns out I have none of that now - hence I don't race.

(if anyone wants a low-cost CTCRC Group One car - then PM me directly)

Nice, cool pair of cars with the Escort and the Sunbeam!

andy97 said:

I do understand that completely. Particularly the faff!
I haven’t raced or rallied this year, largely due to working away a lot and that’s not compatible with then competing at a weekend. I am now “between contracts” and have some time so have entered a rally in a few weeks time in a mk2 Escort and a race at Donington in September in a Caterham. In preparation I have a track day booked at Cadwell on Thursday and a track evening at Donington next Tuesday but I have realised that I am not really looking forward to it, all due to the hassle of getting tyres and fuel sorted, towing the car to the venues, sorting out the camper van so I have somewhere to stay etc etc etc. Is the buzz really worth it any more? Not sure. Maybe I will come back on Thursday with my enthusiasm restored!!??

Fingers crossed for you, hope it goes well!

As mentioned by both, I can appreciate the time-sink aspect of things, and also the faff/hassle - I guess that's just a price to pay for the feeling of being able to use your pride and joy flat out on a track. Fortunately i'm fairly free of ties at the moment so the time aspect isn't such an issue, however can see how starting a family etc. would deter one from competing as often/at all

[Chunkychucky]

EddyP said:

Back in '99, when I was 16, I helped run a National Supersports Clubmans car which won the championship that year, we sold it and a few years later the formula died and all of the rear engined cars vanished, a different formula carried on for front engine K Series powered cars.
I recently wanted to see if I could find the car as it's atwo seater so would be great for having tuition in on track days initially. I've managed to find it! It's in bits in a barn and has been sat there since 2006! I'm picking it up this weekend! Will be a great project to rebuild it and get it back on the track.
Unfortunately looking around it doesn't look like it's eligable for any current formulas, it's a proper race car, not a road going car and has a Vauxhall red top 2L in the back of it, that rules it out form 750MC, Sports 2000 might be possible if I was to spend a load of money and fit a Duratec, I doubt Clubmans will allow it back as it's a front engined formula now.
Real shame as they're great cars and there could be a few more out there like this looking for something to race in.

Awesome story, well done managing to locate the old car! As you say rear-engined clubmans cars are rare nowadays, would be great to see some pictures or a Readers Rides thread with your backstory of the car and any progress you may make

jm8403 said:

Oilchange said:

I wondered about this for ages, then an email dropped reading:

"Good evening,

Despite the low number of entries at the GT Allcomers race at Snetterton it was a really good event, and quite a large crowd of locals turned out to support it.
Lots of you I know, called to express your disappointment that you would be unable to come along due to the extreme short notice. I’ve also had lots of calls to see if we would put something else together on a similar format at a later date.
We now have another unique opportunity to run on the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit on the weekend of 22nd and 23rd of October. The format would be exactly the same as at Snetterton i.e. a 30 minute qualifying and a 50 minute race with a mandatory pit stop to allow for a second driver if required, with an entry fee of £895 plus VAT."

£1100 just to enter a race!
That is why I'm staying away, I simply won't pay that much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9ytTUe_M90&t=1169s
Would that be the same as this one? 1.1K for 750mc which had a massive variation in ability of drivers/cars, i.e. recipe for disaster...

Yes Silverstone events always have a 'premium' (to keep the bar stocked in the BRDC 'club house' no doubt) but that is still not cheap for less than 1.5 hours of track time! And as mentioned, multi-class racing can be a pain in the arse for some people, introducing unnecessary risks and meaning instead of battling with similarly-paced cars you have to drive with one eye on the mirror

[Chunkychucky]

ChevronB19 said:

This is actually cheap. I was a committee member with an Historic club briefly, and circuit hire costs these days are horrific. Having said that, and it might just be a perceived opinion, it is more expensive these days, Dunlop L or M sections, for example, used to be around the price of a mid range road tyre, now they are premium plus prices (thankfully I have a light car, so a set can last a season, but you’re lucky to get 2 races out of them from something like a mustang).

Personally, I’ve probably hit the ‘middle aged spread’ of being relatively skint, and now having wife, kids and a house to do up, so not only is it no cash, it’s also no time. I’ll do a few road class hillclimbs and sprints in my everyday car (up GTi), and keep the car (we’ve had it 50 years after all), and revisit when funds/time allow.

Edited by ChevronB19 on Thursday 25th August 20:42

I think this is another issue (for historic racing at least) - so many series stipulate entrants must run this tyre. It's no bad thing as (for pre-66 touring cars) the tyres are similar to what the cars ran back in period the the crossply aspect means you get to indulge in lovely angles of slip through most corners. However, £740+ delivered for 4 x 13" tyres? Christ, I felt like i'd been held at knifepoint by Dick Turpin...

[Chunkychucky]

ChevronB19 said:

(By the way, if you *are* loaded, L sections are slightly better in the wet than M sections).

I’m not loaded, I found out because we ran in 2 series years ago, one that specified L, the other L or M. Difference was a few tenths.

Good to know, thanks for that Ed - sounds like I need to take another mugging at the hands of Mr Turpin at some point...

As an aside, did you get to the HRDC meeting at Castle Combe? Heard Charles Knill-Jones had a big one, as he was entered in an A35 would have been interested to know if his accident was attributable failing on the car... Hope he's alright!

Also - having seen a picture of the paddock from the meeting, it really served to illustrate the number of people that pay 'The Jordanians', Westbourne Motorsport, CCK Historic et al fees to prep their cars/take them to the meetings in their massive trucks. Didn't appear to be anywhere near as many 'privateers' with 1 car/1 trailer in the paddock

[Chunkychucky]

Just checking the qualifying results from Castle Combe, and i'm struggling to comprehend what is written on the screen...

Did Julius Thurgood seriously run all-pre 1960s Touring Cars in one single 'Touring Greats' class structure? If so it boggles the mind.... Given the entry fees charged, it might be nice to walk away with a £5 tin pot in recognition of a Class Podium or something, but that's never really going to happen racing a Austin A35 Academy car in the same class as a 3.4 Jaguar Mk1... bonkers.

[Chunkychucky]

ChevronB19 said:

Ha, I’m not Ed, I’m his son!

st! Sorry, Chris