Hillsborough Inquest

[Dan_1981]

First things first - these threads never ever seem to go well - could we try and keep things at least reasonably civil, trying to keep away from the stereotypes and usual comments that cause the issues?

Expected verdict?

I suspect that it will come back as unlawful killing, however reading the conclusions that the jury have to come to to confirm that assumption i'm not so sure.

To return am unlawful killing verdict the Jury must be "sure" that match commander Ch Supt David Duckenfield was "responsible for the manslaughter by gross negligence" of those who were fatally injured

The coroner has laid out four steps jurors must consider when answering question six. Only if they are sure of each, can they conclude the 96 were unlawfully killed.

They are:
Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died

Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care

Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths

Finally, the jury must be sure the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence"


Apparently the Jury have reached a majority verdict of at least 7 people.

[Dan_1981]

Full list of the 14 questions they need to answer here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35...

[Dan_1981]

Q7 - Do the fans shoulder any blame.


No.

[Dan_1981]

I was hesitant to start the thread, mainly as I've seen the outcome from previous ones - usually the mods end up locking it.

We managed almost 13 posts before things turned in that direction....

However on the other hand I don't think the event can go without discussion.

There are always going to be differing opinions in the blame attributed to fans - however could we at least be a little respectful when discussing?

Particularly in light of the finding from the inquest.

[Dan_1981]

cb31 said:

markh1973 said:

A response that probably tells us more about you than the families of the 96.

Does everything have to boil down to money - juat maybe they want the truth about what happened to be public knowledge and formally accepted as well as for those who were responsible to be held to be responsible.

Forgive my cynicism, let's see if it was well founded or not over the coming months.

Why shouldn't they claim compensation?

[Dan_1981]

Zoon said:

Dan_1981 said:

Why shouldn't they claim compensation?

Who's going to pay?
Genuine question.

SYP?

Don't know.

But I don't think that today is about the money for a single one of the campaign groups.

[Dan_1981]

saaby93 said:

RottenIcons said:

Lincsblokey said:

If they hadnt lied through there teeth to try and hide the fact they screwed up this would have been decided years ago.

They brought it in themselves. simple as that

Turquoise said:

Perhaps you are not aware of the systematic cover up and lies they told. That's the reason it's taken 27 years to get to this point.

The two posts above give the reason a generation has passed with no proper account being made. Inability, then error followed by realisation and fear compounded by lies and finally corruption was the devilish spiral here. A helter-skelter of human failings.

Did we see lies?
From what we've heard there were errors and some people said the wrong thing and made guesses as they would in a quick moving situtaion.
Why not keep with what the Jury has found?

Yes we have seen lies.

Duckenfield admitted in his own evidence last year that he had lied.

[Dan_1981]

Murph7355 said:

V8 Fettler said:

A simple flowchart resolves the gate/tunnel issue. Could be developed and managed by a ten year old.

Clear management processes (including flowcharts) remove decision-making responsibilities from one person (Duckenfield), that would have been a good thing at Hillsborough..

A good operational plan will cater for the unexpected.

The situation arose primarily because of poor design, the secondary cause was poor management.

Simple flow charts would only have been any use for eventualities that could be predicted. We need to be careful not to judge that with hindsight at the fore. There were many levers involved in why football crowds were handled as they were in the 80s.

Also,removing responsibility by dint of a flow chart is not sensible.

The police messed up on the day but there were no doubt many factors involved,some of which may have been predictable. Others less so (keeping hindsight at bay).

The disgraceful thing was what happened afterwards. Lying and covering up is bad enough, but tarring victims is as low as you can get. The people involved in those elements of this tragedy are the ones that need fully prosecuting.

This for me is the key bit.

Listening to 5 live last night they interviewed many of the families, one question was asked a number of times, "If the truth had been told at the time, could you have forgiven the mistakes that were made?"

The answer from all was a unanimous yes. People made errors that resulted in peoples deaths.

This is bad, but no-one intended for anyone to die.

What happened afterwords - the cover up, the lies, the tarring, the changing of statements, - not just in the immediate aftermath, not just in the few weeks afterwords, but for months, and years. These lies are the ones that have survived, given everyone a skewed and false idea of what happened and who was to blame.

This is the bit that is unforgivable. We can talk all day about who is to blame, why fans were treated in a particular way - and much of that can be understood with the context of the day.

The way the 'establishment' (I hate that word) acted is unforgivable, and is why the investigation must continue through to its criminal conclusion.

[Dan_1981]

Jonesy23 said:

There wasn't really much point in the Sun (sorry, S*n) apologising again as the only people who actually care about that bit of history wouldn't pay any attention anyway. They'll be holding that grudge for a hundred years whatever happens, look at the Echo or online and it's something of a mania.

It might also be fair to say that outside a particular part of the country this story just isn't that big or important to most people. The fact that there's been an inquest verdict doesn't refresh it particularly, the main event was a long time ago and the arguments about what happened have been going on for years with nothing really new here.

I know that might not be what some people what to hear but there is more going on in the world than just the JFT96 campaign and newspapers reflect that.

A police department, or two cover up the cause of the biggest sporting disaster in British history and it isn't a big thing???

This is far more than a few people died at a football match.

[Dan_1981]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster

Similar.

Tunnel involved.

Poor management of the crowd.

No football fans.

No Antique Roadshow fans either though.

[Dan_1981]

XCP said:

Unless the jurors have lived in caves since 1989, I can't see how Duckenfield can expect a fair trial.

Depending on who you get on the jury it could go either way.

You only need a few Willy Nilly's on there for them to support Duckinfield.

[Dan_1981]

Willy Nilly said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

Willy Nilly said:

People should be held to account and I know people were prosecuted over Hysel, but to listen to the constant noise about Hillsborough, it's as though everyone attending were saints. The people killed were blameless, but the crowd quite clearly wasn't. It may be time to move on.

you are a clueless oaf and I am being kind. Its not about the Liverpool supporters but the death of 96 people who just went to a football match and failed to come home followed by a Cover up that lasted 27 years. Hopefully you will not have a member of your family die in these circumstances but if you do please come back and tell us its time to move on.

It's very much about Liverpool supporters, they were the only ones involved, they were the ones that ultimately caused English clubs to be removed from European competition. Again, I am not blaming the people that died, I would like some responsibility being taken publicly by the supporters who were there on the day, it wasn't just bad crowd management.

Not according to the investigation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35...

Please stop trying to pollute the thread and peoples views with comparisons to Heysel.