The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Spanna]

I can't find a thread here about it and it seems we should get informed as it's hitting the mainstream. Piers Morgan was just this morning having a discussion with two gender non-conformists on Good Morning Britain. The problem I have with the 'identity' thing is you may feel you look a certain way but you can't police what's in my head and inevitably my thoughts on that will come out in speech naturally. These gender neutral people on GMB appeared to be a man and a woman, however both were actually born the opposite of how they looked and identified as non-binary.

This issue seemed to take hold quickly in Canada at the back end of last year, but the debate seems to be the same all over the West. This video is the probably the most balanced in terms of getting both sides across:

https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc

It is 54 minutes long I know but you get a male professor debating his side and a transgendered professor debating their side.

My view is that if these ideas and ideals ever make their way into law they will be utilised by the nastiest people. Let's say a male is convicted of rape, he can suddenly identify as a woman and be sent to a women's prison, right? How does this work with changing rooms? Can I now just use the women's and not be scrutinised?

It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.' The other thing is kids are impressionable and will jump on this after seeing it online, that muddies the water for people with genuine gender/sex issues who get lumped in with kids doing it for a fad. Some people need real genuine help with it. Also, I've watched a few videos on YT by the gender non-conformists and they are always screwing up their pronouns and bumbling out sentences saying "OMG I'm so sorry I called you a girl." Well, that's identity for you, they look like a girl, you call them 'she', that's your brain working and you can't police that.

TL;DR. Gender neutrality. What should we do, if anything, to accomodate them better in society? Why and why not?

[Spanna]

Can we ignore it though? In Canada they've put these identities in their Human Rights Law protected in a similar way to hate speech. It's quite ludicrous to many people and if I ever ask a normal person they have no clue what non-binary even is, yet they're taking political ground with their ideology.

Personally I think it's part of a wider political movement, but this specific debate and gender non-conformity might breach its way into schools. I see that as incredibly harmful and confusing to kids.

Here's something that kids have seen elsewhere in the World:



Using terms like sexually attracted is very confusing before and during puberty I would think. I'd just like to see what the thoughts are here on a mostly conservative male forum.

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PurpleMoonlight said:

Spanna said:

Can we ignore it though?

No doubt the politicians and pressure groups won't let us.

We're already there though. Ignoring it for the most part whilst it gains speed will make it difficult to stop eventually as people will be years behind the debate.

Credit to Piers Morgan, he did make their arguments look a bit silly and straw man. But if these views are beginning to gain ground they should be put out there to be seen and only then do these people have their views shut down by undeniable logic instead of just getting confirmation bias by their peers. Pushing it underground and ignoring just makes it boil under the surface.

Shuvi McTupya said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

the issue seems to have captured the hearts of the PH massive ....

We already accept the three genders:
Male
Female
Hairdresser.

I've driven both a TT and an MX-5 but I don't conform to the hairdresser gender. Sorry.

You'll also forgetting powerfully built company director. That's me thanks.

[Spanna]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Precisely the questions that need answering. My answer would be to take each case, if it comes to that, as individual. People are individuals and you can break down every part of someone until everyone is different to the next.

The vegan joke will become a gender non-binary thing soon. How do you know someone is gender non-binary? They'll fking tell you. Or be offended if you don't guess it I suppose.

Trophy Husband said:

I am a man (at least I think I am but someone may tell me otherwise!) in my late forties. I consider myself to be liberal to all variants of gender identification on an as and when basis ie. if and when I meet a real person who has made a 'choice' about how they want to identify themselves I will respect them as I should. However, it is not a real world issue to me purely based on statistics. What irks me is that whilst I understand the difficulties experienced by individuals with (FFS you have to be so careful about choice of words!!) different feelings about their own gender we all seem to have to be thinking about it more than we should need to. There is too much crusading going on and too much being rammed down our throats about it. I have two sons 5 & 6, we live in rural North Wales, they go to a small village school in a lovely community and I really don't see the need for them to be learning about these issues that affect such a very,very small proportion of the population. I am teaching them to respect and be kind to everyone they meet without exception and believe that that is enough for now. When they are older and I can explain things to them in a way that they can slowly grasp then that is what I will do. Until then, enough already.

I have a 7 year old son and feel exactly the same as you. Thing is with having kids and this going on is I feel I have to be up to date with it in case there's some far left teacher at school who wants to start teaching it. Or he comes across it through friends or online and starts asking questions. I need to know how to answer him.

Edited by Spanna on Wednesday 17th May 10:34

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21TonyK said:

I had no issue with any of it until my son told me he re-wrote an essay in his exam yesterday to be gender neutral in case he lost marks.

I suggested he ignore the 72 genders on facebook and focus on the real world.

How old is he, who taught him about gender neutrality and why did he feel he needed to reword his work?

As adults we can brush it off but kids can easily get confused by all this. He's had to adjust his thinking and work to conform to 0.1-0.3% of the population in fear of offending someone or someone who marks it being offended on their behalf.

[Spanna]

21TonyK said:

He's 16, his school has LGBT groups etc etc. He's sensible enough to make up his own mind and have his own opinions but was concerned that he could lose marks in his GCSE if he didn't conform to what he feels the media is portraying as being "correct".

I explained that it was primarily a lot of attention seekers who are identifying with the "latest greatest thing" and want to be special and unique and challenge "authority". Bit like when I was a kid we had punks, mods and casuals. It's something 99% of people would grow out of and only those who are genuine would still feel all their life.

A great answer. I think fashion is another way of putting it for a lot of these people.

Atleast they won't breed, none of them are women

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Halb said:

768 said:

Halb said:

Lance Catamaran said:

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

Rape law, possibly?

That popped into my head first, (and I thought of Peep Show), if you insert something into someone without consent, or have 'sex' without consent, that is rape. I am not sure what currently actually is rape with regards to attacks on men.

Therein lies another issue and that's the importance of language, especially with regards to the law. Words need to have a clear, proper and precise meaning.

What's rape? Well it's a sexual attack on another human. Sure, but what fully constitutes the act of rape? Is it any unwanted sexual contact or does rape mean actual penetration?

Distinctions have to be made.

[Spanna]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5073511/Te...

Seems the child in question weren't too miffed after 'correcting' the teacher but the mother complains weeks later.

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Triumph Man said:

How about we just greet everyone with "alright mate" then nobody will be offended. No need for sodding lanyards then!

I'm not your mate, buddy!

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wiggy001 said:

HTP99 said:

I agree with them.

And here is a perfect example of how clever the clickbait-writers at the Mail are! I read the post here and I was annoyed by the leftie-feministas attacking a male-only lido in the name of equal rights and/or feminism. I then saw your post and became annoyed further at your agreement with them.

I then read the article.

I agree with them, and you, completely.

Ditto. They’re AGAINST the self identify legislation and this was a way of protesting it. Fair enough.

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Randy Winkman said:

BlackLabel said:

The BBC wants to know “are you sure you don’t gender-stereotype children?”

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBC/status/102323742165...

A good experiment - it shows how early and easily stereotyping happens.

It is true that this happens. I guess the next question is how you can work out what your child is interested in as early as possible so they get the toys and education at home based on their interests.

Doing this experiment will probably on average wield the results we’d expect for gender differences anyway on the larger scale but for the individual kids, having their actual interests worked on would surely be better as individuals regardless.

[Spanna]

Davos123 said:

Brads67 said:

So if I call a man Mr because he is obviously a man, then he lets me know he prefers to be a female, I'm the arse ?

If someone asks to be called a martian, that's fine with me, but I'm confused as to why I would be in the wrong for stating the obvious.

To the first line - only if you continue to misgender them.

To the second, there are hundreds of pages here you can read to get a better understanding of why a trans woman is a woman.

And if someone continues to misgender, what’s the recourse against them?