Transgender schooling row
Discussion
Nigel and Sally Rowe, from the IoW, have taken their 6yo son out of his CoE school and are suing the school, because a boy in the class sometimes came to school in the girl's uniform. Their other son was withdrawn from the same school for the same reason last year.
They are claiming they are being discriminated against on religious grounds, because their Christian beliefs are being infringed.
Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/10/parents...
Mail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4869682/Ch...
Radio 4 interview - https://www.facebook.com/BBCRadio4/videos/10155663...
Thoughts...?
They are claiming they are being discriminated against on religious grounds, because their Christian beliefs are being infringed.
Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/10/parents...
Mail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4869682/Ch...
Radio 4 interview - https://www.facebook.com/BBCRadio4/videos/10155663...
Thoughts...?
Smiler. said:
The article of R4 this morning stated that the child in question would dress as either a girl or a boy, depending upon what gender they identified with that day.,
That could be very disruptive amongst the other 6 year old children in the class.
Would it be similarly disruptive for a girl to come school in trousers one day and a skirt the next?That could be very disruptive amongst the other 6 year old children in the class.
Randy Winkman said:
But it is "the school uniform". And before you say "but it's only the school uniform for girls", what's the rationale for that? Other than "because it is!".
Umm, it's been illegal to do that for seven years, anyway.And that's the whole point. The school would actually be breaking the law by saying "You can only wear this portion of the uniform list because you have a willy..."
StottyGTR said:
I predict we're going to see lots of about turns from transgender kids in the future. Possibly people changing their gender and back every few years too.
<shrug> Will that be a problem - for them? It certainly doesn't affect anybody else...StottyGTR said:
I don't understand why the hormone replacement therapy and surgery has to come into it
It doesn't.StottyGTR said:
TooMany2cvs said:
StottyGTR said:
I predict we're going to see lots of about turns from transgender kids in the future. Possibly people changing their gender and back every few years too.
<shrug> Will that be a problem - for them? It certainly doesn't affect anybody else...StottyGTR said:
I don't understand why the hormone replacement therapy and surgery has to come into it
It doesn't.How many people do you encounter in day-to-day life whose genitalia you take on trust, because you've never actually seen personally...? Does it make a difference if their genitalia doesn't match (iyho) with how they dress or refer to themselves?
danllama said:
Are trans children allowed in Muslim schools in Britain? Just wondering how level this playing field is.
It'd be illegal for an Islamic school to discriminate on the basis of gender identity, just as it'd be illegal for the CoE school in this case. There is no difference.This case is not about a school breaking the law, though. It's about a parent at the school throwing their toys out of the pram because the school WON'T break the law.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-...
popeyewhite said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Simply about people who don't feel they need to be labelled by what's between their legs.
Actually that's not really correct. Gender dysphoria has little to do with labels and far more to do with personal psychological identity differing from physical sexual identity. <applause>, Tuna.
Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
amare32 said:
What's wrong with having traditional beliefs?
Define "traditional beliefs".Do you simply mean telling people who happen to be gay that they're inherently bad people, but can be cured?
Or would you actually go so far as to try and cast the demons out of them?
Should witches be dunked or burnt?
Johnnytheboy said:
TooMany2cvs said:
<applause>, Tuna.
Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
I think people get upset when they are expected to change the way they talk, act and even think because of someone else's life choices. Why does everybody get so excited about what other people do with their lives? Does it MATTER who somebody else may or may not choose to shag or marry? Does it MATTER whether the contents of their underpants "match" their clothing, or which bog they go into? I've never once had anybody at passport control check that the contents of my underpants match what it says on my passport - has anybody here?
On the flip side to that, look at what the world has lost through bigotry and intolerance - how much more could Alan Turing have contributed, just for one? But, no, who he fancied was more important.
BTW, the protected characteristics under the Equality Act are, in the main, not "choices". We can argue about whether religion is a choice or not later - but I suspect the concept of religion isn't the issue here.
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.
I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.
Why does it make any difference to you which term you use to describe somebody?I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.
Johnnytheboy said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm quite happy for people to dress/act as the opposite sex, and even have cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex if they want to do that. After all, it has no impact on how I live my life.
I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.
Why does it make any difference to you which term you use to describe somebody?I'm less happy about being told to talk, act and think as if this makes them the opposite sex if I don't believe that's the case.
Tuna said:
It's a fine line, and one that I think some of the more extreme LBGT proponents cross when they invent 27 different personal pronouns. However well meaning, they've created a social minefield that no-one can possibly navigate through unscathed.
Yup.There's really only a simple three-way choice needed. Male/Female/Non-binary. Or, in FB relationship status terms, "It's complicated"...
popeyewhite said:
TooMany2cvs said:
popeyewhite said:
And now people are being pounded by the LGBT lobby as well or whatever who would have us believe in gender fluidity.
Only where those people are refusing to grant others even the most basic of respect, by insisting everybody fits THEIR opinion of what's "right".The only way it can really be any kind of issue for you is if you think everybody must fit into your nice little boxes.
Do you have the first clue as to what I happen to be wearing currently, or what I defined my gender as? If I told you, would it make any difference AT ALL to your life?
Funkycoldribena said:
Wear what you like but there's only two boxes.Full stop.
So if somebody simply added a third box - "Non-binary" or "It's complicated" - you'd be happy?Or, come to that...
Funkycoldribena said:
If you dig up.a body and extract DNA there's only two ways it can go.
I'm no geneticist, but AIUI chromosomes in DNA really aren't that simple.Have a read of this - from a decade ago...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-mix...
and then this...
http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
and you'll see it really isn't as simple as "Is there a Y chromosome?" - and, even then, that's only the physical side of it. Who are you to decide whether somebody else's mental understanding of themselves is wrong?
Perhaps also have a read of Jeffrey Eugenides' novel Middlesex.
Yertis said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Do you have the first clue as to what I happen to be wearing currently
I've always pictured you in sandals, and home-woven garments of the sort that early medieval people worepopeyewhite said:
If you've been given dangly bits, nature intends you to act in a manner likely to attract a mate - display male behaviour if you will.
t
t mammoth over head with big stick. Eat mammoth.t
t woman over head with smaller stick. Drag woman back to cave.Die horrible death before 30.
That's basically how it worked for most of humankind's time on this planet.
popeyewhite said:
Tuna said:
I've worked with a couple of transsexual people and undoubtedly their choice to change was the right one for them and they were healthier and happier for doing so. There is absolutely no excuse for preventing people from expressing non-traditional gender and sexuality if they wish to do so and are capable of understanding and accepting the consequences.
I agree with you if the people concerned are adults and not schoolchildren,But, of course, you're not really happy with it being their decision, and you're not really happy with accepting that decision, are you?
popeyewhite said:
and it doesn't change the fact that X = man, Y = woman, regardless of what clothes they wear or how they feel.
For most people, yes.But is that really the be-all-and-end-all to it? Aren't we just a little more enlightened than assuming the contents of somebody's underpants define their role in life?
Strikes me that this really is just the next step after deciding that half of the population weren't actually inherently inferior, and perhaps ought to be allowed to be educated/vote/work after all, simply based on whether they have willies or not. At the end of the day, "willy or not" is just as effective as worrying about anything as technical as chromosomes for 99.9%+ of the population, so why even bother with such new-fangled technology? Just have a quick Crocodile Trump, and you don't even need to ask the question. <squeeze> Hunter-gatherer or homemaker-childbearer?
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 19th October 17:24
Rude-boy said:
Imagine you were a an 'unsure' boy and it was determined that the best option was to lop your knackers off and raise you as a girl.
Gender reassignment surgery is not exactly getting a really unsuitable tattoo on a whim.Well, there may be the odd rogue surgeon who would do it for a very large pile of cash, without a massive amount of pre-operative counselling and several years living as a female, but you'd probably have a very high chance of not actually surviving the surgery. But it certainly happening like that on the NHS...
Anyway, post-op would allow you to legally tick the other box out of that wide choice of two. That's not what's being talked about here.
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