Carrilion in trouble

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Outgoings outpacing income e dry month. Slow income on major projects. = £964 million short .
They are considering a call on shareholders to help bolster the finances. Company has been low balling major projects for years, using cheap labour and outing perfectly good decent companies with thier cheapo substitutes with people on rubbish money. Now it seems the business model is unravelling.
Chickens and roosting coms to mind.

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Europa1 said:

If you're going start a thread ranting about a company, at least spell their name correctly.

I just knew somebody would pick up on that, well done sir. Now anything of substance to add ?

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iphonedyou said:

crankedup said:

Outgoings outpacing income e dry month. Slow income on major projects. = £964 million short .
They are considering a call on shareholders to help bolster the finances. Company has been low balling major projects for years, using cheap labour and outing perfectly good decent companies with thier cheapo substitutes with people on rubbish money. Now it seems the business model is unravelling.
Chickens and roosting coms to mind.

It's 'Carillion'.

I can't imagine they've been low-balling major projects for the fun of it, either. Chickens and roosting my arse.

You are wrong! it’s very well documented regarding this Companies business model. Can’t beleive Ph are so usiness ignorant tbh. Shareholders have been taking a hammering and may be asked to stump up some more cash.

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Rovinghawk said:

I'm very familiar with them.

The root cause of their problem is a mixture of incompetence & arrogance. They mostly deserve what's coming.

Thank the lord somebody talks sense.

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cherryowen said:

By coincidence, a couple of weeks ago my assistant QS popped into my office saying that Carillion have sent us an enquiry and asking if he should price it or if it was going to be dealt with by me.

I said that personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole due to i) Carillion's 90 day payment terms for its supply chain and ii) industry reports of their current dire financial issues.

Clearly most of the posters in here have zero knowledge of this massive Company, surprising.
If shareholders decide not to stump up this will possibly implode the Company causing a major restructuring. With so many major projects in harness this may well result in chaos

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REALIST123 said:

crankedup said:

cherryowen said:

By coincidence, a couple of weeks ago my assistant QS popped into my office saying that Carillion have sent us an enquiry and asking if he should price it or if it was going to be dealt with by me.

I said that personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole due to i) Carillion's 90 day payment terms for its supply chain and ii) industry reports of their current dire financial issues.

Clearly most of the posters in here have zero knowledge of this massive Company, surprising.
If shareholders decide not to stump up this will possibly implode the Company causing a major restructuring. With so many major projects in harness this may well result in chaos

The thing is, none of what you are saying is news. They've been in trouble, issuing profit warnings, seeing shares slump for months.

Why post about it now?

You have just stated my reasons,months have slipped by and they are slipping deeper rather than digging out. Any Company in trouble,such as this one, is worthy of a thread imo, hence my post. It may not be news to you but others may be interested in debating the issue, if that’s OK by you of course

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Europa1 said:

crankedup said:

Europa1 said:

If you're going start a thread ranting about a company, at least spell their name correctly.

I just knew somebody would pick up on that, well done sir. Now anything of substance to add ?

If you want people to engage and contribute substantive points in a thread you have started, I feel the least you could do is spell the subject of the thread correctly. If you "just knew somebody would pick up on that", why did you spell it incorrectly in the first place?

Put yer brain in gear mate, maybe I posted and then realised my error! f*ck me You are more concerned with a spelling error than subject matter, spells you out a a troll.

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REALIST123 said:

crankedup said:

REALIST123 said:

crankedup said:

cherryowen said:

By coincidence, a couple of weeks ago my assistant QS popped into my office saying that Carillion have sent us an enquiry and asking if he should price it or if it was going to be dealt with by me.

I said that personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole due to i) Carillion's 90 day payment terms for its supply chain and ii) industry reports of their current dire financial issues.

Clearly most of the posters in here have zero knowledge of this massive Company, surprising.
If shareholders decide not to stump up this will possibly implode the Company causing a major restructuring. With so many major projects in harness this may well result in chaos

The thing is, none of what you are saying is news. They've been in trouble, issuing profit warnings, seeing shares slump for months.

Why post about it now?

You have just stated my reasons,months have slipped by and they are slipping deeper rather than digging out. Any Company in trouble,such as this one, is worthy of a thread imo, hence my post. It may not be news to you but others may be interested in debating the issue, if that’s OK by you of course

What an arrogant fk you are.

Frankly, I doubt that but a small minority have the slightest interest at all, and won't be affected whatever happens.

As for having a thread about Companies in trouble, if you do that for them all, better make it a whole new forum.

I'm betting you've got a personal interest in picking over the carcass of Carillion, however you choose to spell it.

I'll leave you to it.

Upset being called out now! What is arrogant about answering your questions? If you don’t like the answers run off to another thread. Call out other posters on silly spelling errors don’t be surprised if you get onto the receiving end at some point from those same posters, in this case me.
So not only do you pick out spelling errors you wish to impose your wishes onto the forum as well. Not only that but you feel that not many people will have an interest in the subject, and you call me arrogant, priceless!
You bet I have a personal interest in the Company, care to tell me what it is? Save you the bother, I was considering buying some shares in the Company, knew they had problems earlier and was hoping for a buy at the right time in price and rebound. Looks so bad now for this Company that my money will go elsewhere.
Yes I have had experience of this Company, it’s such a behemoth that it’s likely crossed most people’s paths indirectly. Direct experience, none, however our lad had the misfortune to work for them a couple of years ago. He soon walked out from such a badly run organisation.This Company leaves a sour taste in the mouths of those that have shared the same misfortune, obviously in your protected World it would seem that it is you that has no experience whatsoever of the Company.
Chew it over sometime and realise you have made yourself look like a bit of a clown.

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Brave Fart said:

Well, OP, I am interested in your post, even if others aren't. Not least because my best mate has just left Interserve, one of Carillion's rivals. Interserve are just as bad, if not worse, and are starting a redundancy programme, to nobody's surprise.

It just seems a terrible sector in which to work or invest, so maybe you've dodged a bullet (think positive)?

Our lad is an electrical engineer, and yet when he worked for carillon (spelt wrong?) he was treated as anything but. The job sheets were a joke and the local management worse than a joke. He literally walked off the job, something that he would never have considered at any point in his professional life. And yet after just months with this bunch he had had a gut full of thier sheer incompetence.
Was hopeful the business would sort itself out but it seems not. Not worth a bean for investment potential.

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Trophy Husband said:

I had just left Mowlem before Carillion took them over. My ex-colleagues in Mowlem were all TUPE'd over. None of them lasted longer than a year.
Either forced out by 'behaviours' of existing staff or leaving of their own volition once they realised the approach of the donkeys they were working for.

Yup, they won a contract at the MOD base in woodbridge, formally run by Babcocks, who our lad worked for. Same old same, a familiar story within the industry. If they cleared out the rubbish at the top and installed some management they could have turned it around and it may have been an investment worth having.

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AlrightYouns said:

crankedup said:

Trophy Husband said:

I had just left Mowlem before Carillion took them over. My ex-colleagues in Mowlem were all TUPE'd over. None of them lasted longer than a year.
Either forced out by 'behaviours' of existing staff or leaving of their own volition once they realised the approach of the donkeys they were working for.

Yup, they won a contract at the MOD base in woodbridge, formally run by Babcocks, who our lad worked for. Same old same, a familiar story within the industry. If they cleared out the rubbish at the top and installed some management they could have turned it around and it may have been an investment worth having.

You're wrong, that's CarillionAmey which is a joint venture between, yep you guessed it, Carillion and rail giant Amey.

Different as that won't go under if Carillion will etc.

I've worked for Carillion and they don't care about the engineers, me and another chap were nearly killed twice while working for them, due to no fault of our own.

Just look at how many workers Carillion have already killed, and you start to get the message.

Thanks for pointing that out, I was obviously under the impression that it was carillon alone that won the contract for the MOD base. Are you 100% certain that carallion have’nt brought Amey on after winning this contract?
Staff welfare is an unknown concept it seems when it’s carallion the employer. I believe that they won the major contracts abroad building out major sporting villages, many workers treated appalling and some losing life?

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^^^^^^
Horrendous.

Culpability does not climb high enough imho.

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ALawson said:

Recent changes in the law this year mean that any fatalities will be costing 40 to 50 times that amount in fines if negligent.

Time to buy was 3 weeks ago at 42p before they jumped to mid 60p, I am sure there were a few £ made.

Like Balfour Beatty a few years ago they will continue to find holes in the balance sheet. Will be interesting to see what happens as they are part of a HS2 jv.

Spot on comment above out who shouts loudest.

One for the brave and professionals only perhaps. As you mention it will be interesting to se where they go from thier current situation. If the talked of ‘Rights Issue’ fails they are doomed failing a minor miricle by the looks of things.

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Being the OP naturally I am pleased that this thread has spawned some very interesting exchanges. Has the construction sector always been a ‘less than perfect’ office industry or is this a relatively new phenomenon boom from the constant pressure of the commercial world?

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ClaphamGT3 said:

The issues have not changed but people's understanding of contracting has.

At its heart, contracting is not a profession. It is a risk-taking manufacturing process (albeit of a bespoke product manufactured in situ rather than in a factory) where the contractor uses skill and experience to price a contract on less than complete information and a wide range of inevitable variables and still make money.

Increasingly sophisticated procurement routes and client-side advisors have progressively driven the speculation element out of contracting to the point where sub 2% net margins are commonplace. Given the amount of capital that contractors need to commit to deliver a project of scale, that isn't sustainable and so contractors are increasingly aggressive in seeking margin improvement.

Contracting is increasingly globalising and, much like the automotive industry 30 years ago, it is possible to envisage that, within 10 years there will be only half a dozen 'large' contractors as we would currently define them globally. These will be highly diversified businesses with huge balance sheet strength where building and civil engineering contracting is only one business line

Inevitablity of an increasingly unsavoury workplace for ordinary people, judging from the behaviour of already existing Corporations? Marx was correct when he stated that the commercial world will be just a few huge conglomerates, as you mention with many strings to thier bows. Wether this is good,bad or indifferent I am not at all sure, but the steam roller steams on.

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ClaphamGT3 said:

GT03ROB said:

crankedup said:

Inevitablity of an increasingly unsavoury workplace for ordinary people, judging from the behaviour of already existing Corporations? Marx was correct when he stated that the commercial world will be just a few huge conglomerates, as you mention with many strings to thier bows. Wether this is good,bad or indifferent I am not at all sure, but the steam roller steams on.

I would not agree. I've been in the industry for a long time & size does not inevitably lead to unsavoury workplaces.

I would agree. Terrible practices are more often than not seen in the smaller contractors, not the larger ones

Perhaps large medium or small, dependant upon the management style. Happiness in the workplace seems to be a rare thing, I cannot remember the last time ‘I’m happy’ or even content was pronounced by anybody. Most workers appear to be down in mouth and very pissed off,

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Image taken last week on a carillion site

On a serious note the business has now announced three profit warnings this year, shares plummet to 16.5p. The Government are suspected to consider Carillion ‘to big to fail’ and pushing contracts its way, according to good old Vince Cable.

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pavarotti1980 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/10/g...

Wont be long before we are bailing them out as a taxpayer. Thank god for that magic money tree i say

Indeed, the share price is so low that a ‘Rights issue’ is out of the question, the Company is so loaded with debt with so little underlying assets banks wouldn’t risk further money, Thier only hope is us, the good old tax payer bailing out yet other private Company!
I say let them go bust make room for some businesses that can operate like a business. Of course whichever way it’s cut the tax payer will be hit, what with the number of GoVernment contracts this Company has low balled on.

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Apparently the Company would almost certainly now have been in receivership if it were not such a sensitive Company heavily involved in the Government contracts. I had not realised that they are also in half billion black hole in he pensions book!

Personally I feel the Company should be allowed to go into administration, certainly no Government bailout. Tax payers should not have to bear the brunt of yet more private Company mismanagement.

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Digga said:

Rovinghawk said:

I know a couple of Carillion directors- the main thing they have in common is a refusal to acknowledge any facts which don't suit them.

I look forward to them getting what they deserve from all of this.

I know one who jumped ship not too long back too.

Carillion aside though, it seems there's a conveyor belt of this sort of thing and that, with exceptions of the top of the tree (who are conspicuous enough for the st to stick to them, at least a bit anyway) most of the management blunder off to their next fk-up relatively scot free. An example being a firm a mate used to work for a few years back, Mitie. He was actually made redundant in some sort of "new broom sweeps clean" re-shuffle, but he could see the writing on the wall for the firm. In the end, they didn't actually fail, but it's been a very, very rocky ride for the share price.

A firm I've had dealings with, DX freight is yet another example. Utter shower and the share price reflects some extraordinarily poor strategic and commercial decisions.

Fully agree, I have been banging on for years about over pay and bad management to the point people fall asleep. But I do feel strongly that badly managed Companies are responsible for ruining so many SME which are perfectly good honest robust businesses. Low balling and hounding subs to do it cheaper.