The Irish border

[Ayahuasca]

Why is the Irish border the UK's problem?

Having left the EU the UK could say 'as far as we are concerned, the border arrangements on our side are unchanged'.


If the Irish or the EU want something different, let it be on their side of the border.

What am I missing?

[Ayahuasca]

MYOB said:

Ayahuasca said:

Why is the Irish border the UK's problem?

Having left the EU the UK could say 'as far as we are concerned, the border arrangements on our side are unchanged'.


If the Irish or the EU want something different, let it be on their side of the border.

What am I missing?

In a nutshell, the problem is the RoI and UK do not want a return to border control. But the EU are insisting there must be some form of a border control between NI and RoI.

A border is really two separate borders, one for each country, in and out of a narrow no man's land. The EU can insist on whatever it likes for the Irish /EU side, but it cannot dictate what form the UK side should take.

[Ayahuasca]

Jimboka said:

It’s our problem because we quit the club, so we have to sort out the resulting issues. Sounds fair.

If we quit the club, we should not be expected to continue to be bound by the club's rules.

The EU is not entitled to dictate how the UK operates its border, so traffic from Ireland to the UK is up to us, and can be as free as it is right now.

Only traffic from the UK to Ireland is controlled by the EU.

[Ayahuasca]

mx5nut said:

Ayahuasca said:

The EU is not entitled to dictate how the UK operates its border, so traffic from Ireland to the UK is up to us, and can be as free as it is right now.

Great. Including traffic from the rest of the EU via Ireland, right?

Only if we want it. It we want to search it all, it is up to us too. The point is, we decide.

[Ayahuasca]

Gecko1978 said:

So your in France you sail round the uk to Ireland and then enter ROI via non patrolled border.....

Simply the eu want a border so let the eu enforce ine inside the eu. The uk don't want one so not our problem an not on our side of the line.

The uk then accept some level of smuggling hey ho. but no border would not mean eu nationals could work in the uk or gain access to services etc so this is not an issue. eu problem but they don't want to deal with it an nore to ireland so open border it is end off

Work and services could be controlled once inside the UK by permits. Not really a problem and certainly not a border issue.

[Ayahuasca]

ClaphamGT3 said:

the alternate option - and one that the more paranoid loyalists are coming to believe is underpinning Dublin & Brussels' position on the border issue - is to cede Northern Ireland to the Republic.

Yep, I can see the DUP agreeing to that, no problem.

[Ayahuasca]

s2art said:

slow_poke said:

Finally, finally, it's dawning on those UK powers that little Ireland has a point and a veto and more importantly, they've got 26 mates at their back. Finally, the UK seems to be moving to engage on it.

Sure about that veto? AFAICT Brexit will be QMV matter. for the EU

I think that Fox is trying to outfox the Irish by saying we cannot consider the border until after trade talks commence.

[Ayahuasca]

The Irish position is that the EU / UK border should be in the Irish Sea, i.e. Northern Ireland would be joined (for border purposes) with Ireland. So they want a border between constituent nations of the UK, but not between themselves and the UK.

[Ayahuasca]

powerstroke said:

psi310398 said:

Whether you recall it or not, it was discussed ad nauseam.

The UK has no need to do anything regarding borders if it chooses not to. So far as the GFA is concerned, if the Republic chooses to break it by establishing a hard border at the behest of the EU, so be it. But the UK is not proposing a hard border and cannot therefore be accused of undermining the agreement. Certainly not in any court of law.

We really should stop wringing our hands about this: Eire/the Republic (from 1948) stopped being our problem in 1922 - they can do as they wish. We have no responsibility for their choices and they none for ours.

If their politicians want to risk trashing their economy by employing this kind of brinkmanship, that is entirely a matter for the Irish electorate. But the UK should not be blackmailed.

Exactly .....

Hard to disagree with that.

Interesting to read that, when the separation of Ireland into Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland took place, it was envisaged (by the British) that at some point in the future - presumably when the Unionists and the Home Rule supporters had put aside their differences - they would reunite. NI was never meant to be a long-term proposition. That idea was stymied when the south went independent.

[Ayahuasca]

slow_poke said:

Here's the take from a pretty senior Irish politician who comes from a border constituency. I realise the Guardian is a red flag to Brexit bulls, but try to ignore the publication and give due consideration to the sentiments being expressed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov...

I fail to understand, and the article fails to explain, the link between say 'technology' at the border, and a return to violence.

Of course, some criminals - who may have been terrorists in the past - are making a fortune smuggling stuff over the border. Is he saying that the border needs to be open to appease those types?

[Ayahuasca]

What is to stop the UK leaving the NI border as it is, allowing free movement of people into UK from ROI (and no doubt some, but probably that many, mainland EU people into the UK via Ireland),

BUT:

Not allowing any EU immigrants to work, or to receive benefits - so they would be either tourists, or illegally working.

If found to be illegally working, we boot them out.

On goods, again, free movement of goods because they are not checked at the border

BUT:

Not allowed to sell any illegally imported goods in the UK and stiff fines for those caught doing so.

Essentially solves the border issue and retains position on Brexit.

[Ayahuasca]

sgtBerbatov said:

Ayahuasca said:

What is to stop the UK leaving the NI border as it is, allowing free movement of people into UK from ROI (and no doubt some, but probably that many, mainland EU people into the UK via Ireland),

BUT:

Not allowing any EU immigrants to work, or to receive benefits - so they would be either tourists, or illegally working.

If found to be illegally working, we boot them out.

On goods, again, free movement of goods because they are not checked at the border

BUT:

Not allowed to sell any illegally imported goods in the UK and stiff fines for those caught doing so.

Essentially solves the border issue and retains position on Brexit.

There are "illegal" people in the UK already, earning a crust.

There are "illegal" goods in the UK already, being sold and bought by the consumer.

If you boot them out, with an open border, what's to stop them waltzing back in?

So, actually, what you've suggested solves absolutely nothing other than further enforce the need for a hard border because the UK doesn't want to be in a customs union with the free movement of people.

If you want to go to extremes, a hard border on an island does not work completely unless you put a fence all around the UK - if someone wants to enter illegally, all they need is a boat or a light aircraft.

There is no simple solution, but rather than try to solve it at the border - which is very hard - why not try to solve it through the criminal justice system in the UK - which is much easier?

It is the lesser of two weevils.

[Ayahuasca]

sgtBerbatov said:

I do love the talk of Brexit allowing the UK to trade with the world, but nothing is ever said about how the EU has stopped the UK from achieving that?

You seem to have overlooked that the EU stops it quite effectively by not permitting the UK to reach trade deals with trading partner states.

Anyway this thread is not about the rights and wrongs of Brexit, but on the practicalities of the Irish border.

[Ayahuasca]

sgtBerbatov said:

psi310398 said:

I think the simple point is that HMG has no proposals to do this. What the Irish government decides to do is up to them.

But it's not up to the Irish government to put a border in place to check who's leaving. It's up to the UK government to put a border in place to check who's entering. That's common sense.

How many times have you gone through the UK Border Agency at the airport on your way out of the country?

Lots of countries have an immigration point to check who's leaving. It is quite a common thing. No reason why the Irish couldn't have one.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

Ayahuasca said:

sgtBerbatov said:

psi310398 said:

I think the simple point is that HMG has no proposals to do this. What the Irish government decides to do is up to them.

But it's not up to the Irish government to put a border in place to check who's leaving. It's up to the UK government to put a border in place to check who's entering. That's common sense.

How many times have you gone through the UK Border Agency at the airport on your way out of the country?

Lots of countries have an immigration point to check who's leaving. It is quite a common thing. No reason why the Irish couldn't have one.

Why should they?

As far as they are concerned, people can come and go as they please. It's a British made bed. The Brits have to lie on it.

It's up to them.

If the Brits decide they want to keep the existing border arrangements, its up to the ROI / EU to set up something different on their side if they want.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

jsf said:

This is not rocket science. It's almost like being a member of the EU has fried some peoples brains and they have forgotten how the world works outside EU membership.

But the Brexiteers WANT border controls. If the rest of the world is sloppy when it comes to such matters, that's their business. A large part of the support for Brexit was keeping pesky foreigners out - and by default, that also implies "Pesky Irish Citizens" out too..

No, Eric it wasn't. Well maybe for the Farage fringe, but not for me. For me it was about sovereignty and not being beholden to some foreign unelected (by me) bureaucrat. If the EU were just about free movement of people and a free trade zone, I would have voted remain. But that was not on offer.

Have you seen that the EU now wants an armed wing? WTF is that about?

[Ayahuasca]

Borders are not difficult.

I can travel all over Latin America, North America and the Caribbean with a flash of my passport at inward and outward immigration posts. No visas, no lengthy forms, no bother. Just a short customs form, anything to declare? Yes / No, on your way and have a nice day.

if we want a tech solution, absolutely nothing to stop a US 'Sunpass' type system (used for tolls in Florida, some of you might have used it), a small reader in the car, a sensor at the border, a photo of non-compliant cars, job done. or a London congestion zone type thing. You want to declare goods, do so online before travel, or within 14 days after travel.

I have asked repeatedly, but I don't think I have seen an answer, for the 'link' between a light-touch tech border such as this, and a return to terrorism, which is the card that the ROI seems to be dealing.

[Ayahuasca]

confused_buyer said:

The issue is over goods if you have different customs and regulatory regimes.

Could be controlled through the Criminal Justice / Trading Standards systems.

Not at the border.

You can physically import whatever you like, but if you are caught in possession of or selling illegally imported goods, you face a fine so large that it makes it sound business practice to comply with whatever rules are in place.

[Ayahuasca]

Why would the UK insist on a higher standard of waste?

And if the UK did, then the ROI dumper would just have to comply with them. It would be managed at the waste site not at the border.

And the issue is?

Honestly, some people are just thinking up spurious problems that really are not problems.

[Ayahuasca]

Mrr T said:

Ayahuasca said:

confused_buyer said:

The issue is over goods if you have different customs and regulatory regimes.

Could be controlled through the Criminal Justice / Trading Standards systems.

Not at the border.

You can physically import whatever you like, but if you are caught in possession of or selling illegally imported goods, you face a fine so large that it makes it sound business practice to comply with whatever rules are in place.

FFS it’s been explained to you numerous times why the UK must have a customs border with Eire. It’s not hard, it’s not complex but you keep ignoring it.

Go on then, why 'must' you have a customs border?