Another prove your innocence case

[saaby93]

New Barrister on the case finds prosection held back evidence that eventually causes the case to collapse
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5181277/Ju...
But suppose that evidence was not there, should the case have gone on to succeed?

[saaby93]

Gargamel said:

Gameface said:

You may be right. In which case his lawyer didn't do his job. Surely he can demand the police release the texts? They are part of the evidence bundle.

Again - they (the defense team) did demand them, several times, but the Police refused to release them.

Prosecution Lawyer sees them and makes them available to the defense team. Now it does sound like the defense team should have been on this far more quickly.

The Times article is better but may be behind a paywall

It was the replacement Prosecution Lawyer who uncovered what had happened (or not happened) despite the requests of the defence
Remember the defence would unlikely have known what was avilable

Which is where it comes back to the opening post
Even if the prosecution hadnt uncovered this, how much evidence does there need to be to convict someone?
Do you have to prove your innocence ( by luck)
What was there, that was strong enough to convict?

[saaby93]

ATG said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Scotland yard said:

'We are aware of this case being dismissed from court and are carrying out an urgent assessment to establish the circumstances which led to this action being taken.

'We are working closely with the Crown Prosecution Service and keeping in close contact with the victim whilst this process takes place.'

Which victim would that be?

Am I the only one who thinks this reads as though they think it's the dismissal of the case that's the problem and they are investigating to see why the evidence was released rather than why it was suppressed in the first place?

That's a bit paranoid. It's exactly the wording you'd expect if they currently haven't got a clue what's going on.

It might be expected these days but surely instead of 'close contact with the victim' 'close contact with both parties' would be more appropriate

[saaby93]

Gameface said:

saaby93 said:

Remember the defence would unlikely have known what was available.

What did you mean by available?

His client, the accused, would have told him that there were numerous texts begging for sex etc, would he not?

possibly
ok assume he had but no records were available or telephone calls or face to face
How do you substantiate one word againt another
In theory it wouldnt matter if this hadnt come to light as there cant be enough prosecution evidence to convict on something that isnt true

[saaby93]

bstb3 said:

In theory.. but the fact it was in court would suggest that without this late evidence the CPS thought they had enough for a reaslistic chance of conviction.

For example - it is stated in the Times article the woman in question held fantasies around violent sex / rape. Perhaps they were acting them out, she then had some injuries as seen by others / doctors that would be consistent with her claim. The chap admits to the police that they had sex on the occasions, then its just about his word 'it was fantasy / role play' against her word it wasn't - backed up by injuries. What would the realistic outcome be then, for a jury confronted with no evidence that she held such fantasies?

Isnt it up to the defence lawyer to show just by looking at dating websites, how prevalent that is - wasnt it similar with a footballer on appeal about 12 months ago? So long as theres reasonable doubt they shouldnt convict

[saaby93]

Halb said:

According to the defence lawyer on now, the complainant walked into the cop shop and handed in her phone, and then when the lad was arrested he gave his version.

The defence lawyer said she had exhausted her options...ultimately the prosecution handed over the evidence with 40,000 odd texts.

Even if she hadnt handed her phone, where was the evidence to convict?

[saaby93]

Bigends said:

ChemicalChaos said:

It seems his legal team were deliberately denied access to them:
"Mr Allan’s lawyers were denied access to the woman’s telephone records after police insisted there was nothing of interest for the defence or prosecution"

That's nothing short of outrageous, and both the way the woman and the police officer need some serious jail time

Somebody would have signed the file off stating there was nothing known that would assist the defence or undermine the prosecution case - clearly not correct in this case.
If ive read the report correctly nobody had actually gone through the contents of the disc to establish what it contained and then to decide whether or not disclosure was appropriate or not

I know I keep saying this but all that is evidence to prove your innocence - you shouldnt need it and besides it may not be available
Where is the evidence of guilt?

[saaby93]

Red 4 said:

saaby93 said:

I know I keep saying this but all that is evidence to prove your innocence - you shouldnt need it and besides it may not be available
Where is the evidence of guilt?

That's very naive - and shows a lack of understanding of how things work in investigations/ the criminal justice system/ courts.

Someone came forward and accused this dude of something.
It may not have been sufficient for him to just stand there and deny everything.
This evidence put a different slant on things.
He needed it.
The end.

It has to be sufficient for him to stand there and deny everything
no phone may have been available

You cant be banged to rights just because you cant prove youre innocent

[saaby93]

gooner1 said:

Cold said:

Was this incompetence or dishonesty? I'm not convinced it was just a lack of funds.

Well someone has obviously been dishonest by either not scrutinising the phone and then saying there is no relevant evidence oni it, or by finding relevant evidence on the phone, and then denying that evidence existed,

Depends - they may have just looked for texts between the pair of them rather than texts to her mates

[saaby93]

The Spruce goose said:

i think the amount of false rape claims is about 10% of all reported rapes, not a significant number but still a few hundred people lives potentially ruined for a long time.

How can 10% not be significant?
and is that 10% theyve discovered and theres a further % discounted?

[saaby93]

bucksmanuk said:

anyone seen some of the comments on this on mums-net?
wow- just wow.....

In short although she told all her friends that she enjoyed the type of scenario
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3113500...
there might have been a single occurence that didnt go to plan so she reported him for it?
So despite everything above, he may done what she didnt want once

Edited by saaby93 on Friday 15th December 23:59

[saaby93]

Breadvan72 said:

The disclosure problem - not an isolated case -

https://mintedlaw.wordpress.com/2017/11/19/salt-in...

As noted in an earlier post the elevation to victim status

article said:

Actually in the Salt case the evidence in question related to the credibility of the Complainant’s evidence. That decision was worrying as it seems to downgrade the importance of ‘credibility’ evidence. Note in contrast how often the courts will admit ‘bad character’ evidence against the defendant thus eroding the latter’s credibility. This will please some politicians and press commentators who elevate ‘complainants’ to ‘victim’ status before the evidence has been tested.

[saaby93]

Isn't the funding issue a smokescreen?
What salaries are we talking about?
Besides havent we said previously that you shouldnt need a legal team when appearing before a court?
The evidence should be tested for what it is

One of the key things that come out is the elevation of complainant to victim without any testing
If onse side is to be treated as a victim so should the other

In this case it seems there was luck in that a disc became available to prove innocence
It's the wrong way around
What about other cases where no disc is available?
The defendant should be presumed innocent until a disc becomes available to help show their guilt

Until that's turned around, we're going to keep getting these, and there may be others who have succumbed

[saaby93]

Breadvan72 said:

saaby93 said:

..
In this case it seems there was luck in that a disc became available to prove innocence
...

No, it wasn't luck, it was the skill and professionalism of the lawyers for the defence and prosecution.

I wsnt arguing about that
If no disc had been available would the skill and professionalism have turned up the same overall result?

[saaby93]

Mumsnet
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3113500...

It's not only the title of that thread but the guys name is all over the papers this morning

[saaby93]

La Liga said:

Surprisingly, this is what part of the DPP's job is.

Conspiring Saunders - here's the result of her having 'the minions scurry away doing whatever it takes'...

It's the 'only' thats worrying there
If reports have increased yet convictions lag behind doesnt that suggest theres something wrong with the reporting?
In an ideal world if the system was working the reporting would be on a downward track towards zero, and ultimately there would be no convictions

[saaby93]

PurpleMoonlight said:

I get that every reported incident is recorded.

The recording does not evidence a similar increase of actual crimes being committed.

That's probably the best way of looking at that graph
However there may be a missing middle line showing the number placed before courts


Going back to this case - why do many people assume he was going to be found guilty without the disc?
What evidence supports that?

[saaby93]

steveatesh said:

The feminist influence on sex cases is the fact victims (mainly women) are allowed to be anonymous whilst those who are charged (but not yet convicted) can be named.

Very useful rest of post but at the beginning youve fallen into the same trap as the CPS earlier
Its either alleged victims or complainants that are anonymous and cant normally have their previous history discussed
the case has to stand on its own merit
and
defendants ( who could be victims) who arent anonymous and can have their history put before the court
the case can be put together as multiples

The first is important in this case,as shown on the mumsnet thread
Although she fantasised about being raped and acted out the fantasy and let her friends know
its said that shouldnt be disclosed as she may have been raped in this instance and it should stand on its own

Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 17th December 12:08

[saaby93]

Red 4 said:

Breadvan72 said:

Wow. Just wow,

The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.

Not an MRA? Yeah right.

Lawyer rule no: 153 -

If you can't attack the evidence, attack the witness.

It wears thin sometimes.

The guy has made some very valid points.

You are not always right.
Nobody is - and those who think they know it all are often the dumbest of all.

I generally like/ agree/ thank you for your posts on this forum.
You are clearly a very well educated and well informed dude in certain areas.
But listening to and accepting the view point/ experience of others does not appear to be one of your strong points.

Maybe so - but BV does tend to put forward the type of thing you'll find in court

[saaby93]

Pesty said:

Reportedly the text that was the killer for her was to her freind saying
“ it wasn’t against my will”
So even though he had texts in his phone from her persevering him for sex she basically had to admit in writing that he didn’t do it.
Can the freind be charged with perverting the course of justice?

From here?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5187749/St...
you might as well quote the lot

mail said:

DAMNING RAPE FANTASY MESSAGES
September 2, 2015
To a male friend
Accuser: ‘You clearly don’t love me because you keep revoking my sexual advances, have I got to drug you?’
September 3, 2015
Accuser: ‘People need 3 things in life: food, water and sex.’
Accuser: ‘Sometimes sex is the number 1 priority, I’m really not joking to be honest I always think with my d*** lol.’
Accuser: ‘You know it’s always nice to be sexually assaulted without breaking the law.’
September 3, 2015
To a female friend in an exchange discussing her sexual experiences with Mr Allan.
Accuser: ‘It wasn’t against my will or anything.’
September 3, 2015
Accuser: ‘Love is nice but sex is essential. In all seriousness, I am so frustrated now there is zero chance of me lasting like nine months without sex? I’m struggling now. How the hell do people go months and months without doing it?’
October 12, 2015
To a male friend
Accuser: ‘You sexy f***er.
Male friend: The chocking [choking] I find it to [too] hot, guess we can be messed up together?’
On same date to female friend Accuser: ‘Well are you going to take me into the park and rape me? In the bushes.’
November 2015
A group WhatsApp conversation
Woman friend: ‘You guys are so sweet I feel like raping you all.’
Accuser: ‘Well 18 is a special number and we love you.’
Woman friend: ‘Stop because I seriously will rape you in your sleep.’
Accuser: ‘I told you it’s fine, I’d consent.’

Surely none of that's uncommon - you get people seeking stalkers too
The police and CPS must know that

Setting that aside was there evidence in this case that was likely to convict?