School protests - sex education

[jimPH]

Not sure what the actual syllabus is being taught around sex education, but is an interesting clash of culture.

LGBT Vs Asian community as far as I can make out. Liberals must be pulling their hair out on this one.

[jimPH]

chrispmartha said:

motco said:

I would expect liberals to support ethnic minorities in their strict religious beliefs.

I would expect liberals to support freedom of sexual expression and the accompanying full range sex education.

Rather than assuming, why not ak or better still state your position on the matter?

FWIW I don't think religious teachings should have any bearing on what is taught in schools, and I also think children should be taught about issues surrounding LGBT issues from a young age, there will be kids who have two mums, two dads etc etc and it should be recognised in school that there is nothing wrong with that.

So I am what you would call a Liberal and I'm not tearing my hair out, so you expect incorrectly.

How do some kids have two mums or two dads? Surely there's a test available to whittle them down to one of each.

[jimPH]

Rivenink said:

Macski said:

I live in a predominantly white area of UK but know of many people who disagree with teaching of LGBT issues in junior schools, however it is not what I came here to point out.

Three major things usually form the basis of disagreement about teaching kids about LGBT people.

1. False assumptions that knowledge of LGBT people makes people LGBT.
2. False assumptions that LGBT is all about sex, and there for kids are being taught about sex.
3. It raises consciousness about religious tenets and poses awkward question on religious laws

Macski said:

I wonder why other lifestyles are being taught in schools, poly for example, nudists, incest, promiscuous and so on and if they were how would you feel about it?

No need to wonder, the 'No Outsiders' curriculum is fully explained.

Also being LGBT isn't a lifestyle choice.

Macski said:

Secondly I find it interesting the number of people who attack religeous teaching in school yet support LGBT lessons. THe LGBT communities are tiny although very vocal and considerably outnumber by these with religious beliefs

Depends on what you mean by religious teaching.

Teaching about religions is almost universally accepted as fine; objectively they are an incredibly important part of human history.

Teaching of a specific religion for the purpose of indoctrinating a child to follow that religion for life is wrong; since the choice of religion is usually determined by the fact the parents were also indoctrinated into that religion when they were children.

Why, you might ask, is it wrong to teach a child about one religion and not wrong to teach about LGBT?
Because its not teaching kids to be LGBT; its teaching children to be accepting and tolerant of those who are different to them.

When I grow up, I want to be LGBT... I say that tongue in cheek btw.

Still don't like it. Gut feel tells me it's wrong. I don't mind the differences thing, just not the specifics, why even mention LGBT at such a young age, it's just confusing.

This is purple, that's green and this one is R:200 G:50 B: 56.

[jimPH]

Rivenink said:

jimPH said:

Still don't like it. Gut feel tells me it's wrong. I don't mind the differences thing, just not the specifics, why even mention LGBT at such a young age, it's just confusing.

What are the specifics you think are being taught that are so objectionable to your gut?

Why mention it at a young age?

1. Because there are kids who are trans at that age.
2. Because there are gay and lesbian boys and girls; even if they don't know it yet. They will as they grow up, and they need to know that although they are different to most other people, they're not wrong people because of it.
3. because there are kids with LGBT parents.

I think the more LGBT stuff that tries to be "taught" will see more resistance to it. In my view sometimes the best education is just to quietly accept it. We were doing quite well up till now.

I have no problems with anyone and I've never had a lesson on it. But now I'm really starting to take a dislike to what is becoming a very vocal and noisy minority group.

LGBT is everywhere. Frankly I'm fed up of it.

[jimPH]

Rivenink said:

jimPH said:

Rivenink said:

jimPH said:

Still don't like it. Gut feel tells me it's wrong. I don't mind the differences thing, just not the specifics, why even mention LGBT at such a young age, it's just confusing.

What are the specifics you think are being taught that are so objectionable to your gut?

Why mention it at a young age?

1. Because there are kids who are trans at that age.
2. Because there are gay and lesbian boys and girls; even if they don't know it yet. They will as they grow up, and they need to know that although they are different to most other people, they're not wrong people because of it.
3. because there are kids with LGBT parents.

I think the more LGBT stuff that tries to be "taught" will see more resistance to it. In my view sometimes the best education is just to quietly accept it. We were doing quite well up till now.

I have no problems with anyone and I've never had a lesson on it. But now I'm really starting to take a dislike to what is becoming a very vocal and noisy minority group.

LGBT is everywhere. Frankly I'm fed up of it.

You don't have a problem with anyone, but you're fed up with seeing LGBT everywhere.

Sounds like you do have a problem with LGBT, or you wouldn't notice it and you wouldn't be fed up of it.

Very disingenuous post.

Eh? Give over.

I like tuna, but if I eat it every day I'll get fed up of it, there's only so much tuna a man (*person/animal/neutral) can take. Especially two male ones together.

It took me years to like tuna again after disliking it, I know how not to ruin it.

• Be like tuna*

[jimPH]

gregs656 said:

jimPH said:

I think the more LGBT stuff that tries to be "taught" will see more resistance to it. In my view sometimes the best education is just to quietly accept it. We were doing quite well up till now.

I have no problems with anyone and I've never had a lesson on it. But now I'm really starting to take a dislike to what is becoming a very vocal and noisy minority group.

LGBT is everywhere. Frankly I'm fed up of it.

The problem you have is that your opinion doesn't stand up to the evidence.

We weren't doing quite well up till now - we were doing really quite badly until recently - and it is only as education has improved and awareness generally has been raised that LGBT people have been accepted as normal people who just happen to have a different sexual orientation.

Becoming a vocal and noisy minority group? That ship sailed. Decades a go. It worked and continues to work.

There is no sensible reason not to make children aware that there is something other than hetrosexual relationships and those relationships are ok too.

Evidence?! Have you seen the news? The backlash is in full swing.

The insistence of LGBT campaigners attempting to normalise themselves will be the very reason for the problems they'll face. They're already normal and they don't even know it.

[jimPH]

gregs656 said:

jimPH said:

Evidence?! Have you seen the news? The backlash is in full swing.

The insistence of LGBT campaigners attempting to normalise themselves will be the very reason for the problems they'll face. They're already normal and they don't even know it.

The backlash is not in full swing.

Go back and look at the debate around gay marriage, or gay service people, or LGBT education in schools at all, or repealing the law that made homosexuality legal in the first place.

In all these cases the vocal, rational, minority won the day.

The only reason you think gay people are normal is because of LGBT rights campaigns that you think are not effective or turn people off.

Everywhere isn't it.

Like I said, you have to know where to stop, otherwise you'll never eat tuna again.

[jimPH]

Davos123 said:

jimPH said:

why even mention LGBT at such a young age, it's just confusing.

Seriously, why the fk not? It's not confusing at all. People have relationships with people they're attracted to - all you are teaching kids is that it's acceptable to be attracted to someone regardless of their gender - where's the confusion?

I'll tell you what is confusing - from a young age having everything you're taught about relationships being about men and women when you're attracted to both. Maybe if when I was at primary school, it was perfectly normal to talk about same-sex relationships and you weren't picked on for doing anything remotely feminine by kids and adults alike I wouldn't have spent nearly 3 decades battling with how I felt about people, feeling ashamed for not only fancying women.

Growing up knowing you're different from most kids is hard enough without having everyone ignore and chastise your differences.

Really! We're all different, all of us. We all have a damn cross to bear but we get on with it and learn how to carry it. I'm sorry you've had to put up with stuff but you aren't the only one. Now you've been accepted and you're one of the team, WELCOME aboard. Please, just sit down and shut up. It may come as a surprise but we all have our own st to deal with.

[jimPH]

You don't need to teach things which are accepted as normal. They are just spoken about and accepted as a normal part of life, two same sex parents exist and accepted, therefore its normal. It doesn't need a syllabus because no one cares.

This "Gettem while they're young" approach is unnecessary.

[jimPH]

chrispmartha said:

silent ninja said:

Saw this Sky News interview of an imam
https://youtu.be/_WgIqohR4Jo

I agree with his position, not LGBT forcing their beliefs.

On the issue of being gay being similar to being black or gravity, as someone put it, that's false equivalence. It's a choice.

If a man/woman is a psychopath and has no feelings for other people, that's not a crime. But if he/she decides to act upon it and harm others then it's an issue. If a grown man like Saville likes little boys that's not a crime. He becomes a paedophile once he acts upon it. Now you might say two consenting adults is a different story, but according to the moral beliefs of billions across the world it isn't. The two are simply committing a crime (sin) together and acting on their feelings and desires. After all, incest can be two consenting adults but we find it abhorrent why? It's a moral position. Necrophilia doesn't harm anyone, is that okay? The "as long as you don't harm others" is the most terrible argument.

We can go around in circles rather why don't we respect the fact that large swathes of the population also have beliefs and should be mutually respected? Do LGBT rights trump everything else? We need a middle ground raising awareness of LGBT, but that curriculum isn't it.

Edited by silent ninja on Thursday 23 May 07:27

Let me get this right, you think it’s a choice to be gay?

When did you choose to be heterosexual? (Assuming you are that is)

I thought about cock. I listened to all the pros and cons, quite liked the fashionable exuberant side and having more women friends, going to gay bars was always pretty good. However, it was back in the day where it wasn't quite so well accepted, maybe if it was a normal thing to do I could have tried it out. In the end I decided it wasn't for me, though could partly be my up bringing to blame for that.

Interestingly, in my early 20s, when I was out every weekend, going clubbing, getting loved up every week, it's very easy to let your feelings run away with you, but I always kept them in check. I daresay the lid will be off these days. I met quite a few gay people and one guy boasted "I've slept with just as many straight men as gay men". Not surprised by that at all tbh.

[jimPH]

amusingduck said:

silent ninja said:

Saw this Sky News interview of an imam
https://youtu.be/_WgIqohR4Jo

I agree with his position, not LGBT forcing their beliefs.

On the issue of being gay being similar to being black or gravity, as someone put it, that's false equivalence. It's a choice.

If a man/woman is a psychopath and has no feelings for other people, that's not a crime. But if he/she decides to act upon it and harm others then it's an issue. If a grown man like Saville likes little boys that's not a crime. He becomes a paedophile once he acts upon it. Now you might say two consenting adults is a different story, but according to the moral beliefs of billions across the world it isn't. The two are simply committing a crime (sin) together and acting on their feelings and desires. After all, incest can be two consenting adults but we find it abhorrent why? It's a moral position. Necrophilia doesn't harm anyone, is that okay? The "as long as you don't harm others" is the most terrible argument.

We can go around in circles rather why don't we respect the fact that large swathes of the population also have beliefs and should be mutually respected? Do LGBT rights trump everything else? We need a middle ground raising awareness of LGBT, but that curriculum isn't it.

You're conflating being and doing.

You don't become a pedophile once you act upon it, you were already a pedophile. Now you're a pedophile who has acted on it.
You don't become a psychopath once you act upon it, you were already a psychopath. Now you're a psychopath who has acted on it.

In exactly the same way, being gay is something that you are, not something that you do. There are straight men who feature in gay porn, I'm pretty sure. And celibate gay men.

Now I am confused. Let alone children asking questions.

I'm really not sure these are topics for young impressionable minds.

Questions will be asked. Nothing like getting their affections mixed up when their full of hormones.

I've met gay guys who aren't actually gay, they just got carried away with it all (clubbing), for obvious reasons I think...

[jimPH]

InitialDave said:

I recognised that, yeah. But in this case there is a test, of sorts, with how well the kids take on board the message and then interact with others.

(Popcorn)

Like most of the lefty crap taught, it never goes like they expect it too.

[jimPH]

InitialDave said:

jimPH said:

(Popcorn)

Like most of the lefty crap taught, it never goes like they expect it too.

Yes, teaching kids not to be sts to people who are different is "lefty crap". Very good.

We don't by and large, we happen to be a very tolerant society on the whole. Steps too far tend to push people the other way. I personally don't know anyone who is homophobic, even the ex miners that I work with on the shop, from the youngest to the eldest, even my 90yo grandad doesn't care, even my mother has gay friends, some that's she's fell out with. I wasn't even aware of the "no outsiders" programme until I saw the news, at first I was thinking what's the fuss, but the more I look into it, the more I don't like it.

This constant drive by minority groups to eradicate every utterance they don't agree with is not necessary.

Leave my kids alone dammit!

[jimPH]

gregs656 said:

jimPH said:

We don't by and large, we happen to be a very tolerant society on the whole.

We've been through this, but that only happened because minority groups pushed for it.

Yes we did and Iike I said before, the problem is, you just don't know where to stop. Seeing as we've both repeated ourselves, there's not much more to discuss.

As for Dave's thread dissection...

[jimPH]

Davos123 said:

colin_p said:

It it wonderful seeing leftists / progressives / lefty liberals (all from the same jelly mould) consume one another.

Out of all the horses worthy of backing, there is one that they should never have backed, one that will kill all of the other horses if given half a chance.

Find me one "lefty" in this thread that hasn't set out a very clear position on this issue.

This isn't an Islam vs Gay Rights issue, it's a pro equality vs against equality one. Many people on this thread have expressed they don't think children should hear about gay relationships and I'm willing to bet they aren't Muslims. Don't treat all Muslims as an homogeneous blob. I recently moved to a new country as an openly pansexual man and the two people I'm closest friends with here are both Muslim. I'm reasonably confident they aren't plotting my death. Conversely, there are many people in this thread who clearly have an issue with my lifestyle and would not extend me the same kindness and understanding as those two people.

What on earth makes you think that? You've clearly got a chip on your shoulder. The only reason I wouldn't like you, is if you're a massive tt.

I'm ugly as fk, this means I can't go round thinking I'm Brad Pitt and hit on every girl I like the look of, but you know what, I've decided on the whole that as much as I want to secretly knock the pony out of the receptionist, just being friends without any sexual context is actually alright.

Instead of "hi I'm Dave, I'm a pansexual man" why not just try saying "hi, I'm Dave"

Mind you, if I hadn't of looked it up, I'd just think you were into cooking.

[jimPH]

Davos123 said:

jimPH said:

I thought about cock. I listened to all the pros and cons, quite liked the fashionable exuberant side and having more women friends, going to gay bars was always pretty good. However, it was back in the day where it wasn't quite so well accepted, maybe if it was a normal thing to do I could have tried it out. In the end I decided it wasn't for me, though could partly be my up bringing to blame for that.

Interestingly, in my early 20s, when I was out every weekend, going clubbing, getting loved up every week, it's very easy to let your feelings run away with you, but I always kept them in check. I daresay the lid will be off these days. I met quite a few gay people and one guy boasted "I've slept with just as many straight men as gay men". Not surprised by that at all tbh.

Why don't you just introduce yourself as Jim, rather than "I've thought about cock and enjoy going to gay bars and have often had to keep my sexual desires towards men in check" Jim?

Funnily enough, that's good advice and actually works. It means I don't need to live in another country and I've had no problems holding down a relationship, friends or otherwise; because of my sexuality or how others perceive it. By and large I'd say that my sexuality and thoughts about it are pretty irrelevant.

Why we think it's important to discuss the existence of LGBT with 3-11yo is of equal irrelevance.

Edited by jimPH on Thursday 23 May 23:51

[jimPH]

Heterowhat? To a child in primary school? Don't worry, those buggers aren't getting away with it either, but then I don't recall any specific agendas being introduced to make children aware of it.

I've actually got no problems with it being discussed, what I've got a problem with is the topic being inserted into the curriculum and "taught" and measured by Ofsted no less.

[jimPH]

Erm, the assertion of a minority view through the power of government... It's indoctrination.

Why the programme, just let the teachers get on with it... That's what normal acceptance does.

Why do lefty's always insist on this crusade to force their agenda.

[jimPH]

gregs656 said:

jimPH said:

Erm, the assertion of a minority view through the power of government... It's indoctrination.

Why the programme, just let the teachers get on with it... That's what normal acceptance does.

Why do lefty's always insist on this crusade to force their agenda.

It’s not a minority view.

Can you give me an example of a major shift in social policy that didn’t come around due to a public pressure that started with pressure groups?

Or better yet, 10 examples.

You seem to think this is how it works, so 10 examples should be easy.

I’ll give you 10 that have been lead by pressure groups

Gay rights, discrimination on the grounds of race, women’s suffrage, stigmatisation of smoking, workers rights, marriage equality, the education of women, sex education, abortion laws and - i’ll go there - brexit.

I would say the vast majority of the social policy that you think just happened to come about was instigated by a pressure group.

But I look forward to you examples none the less.

But none in primary schools. Until now.

[jimPH]

There isn't enough straw to round in this thread!