MPs say car ownership not compatible with decarbonisation

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

So, news today, BBC report that our esteemed MPs say that car ownership is not compatible with decarbonisation.

Thoughts please gentlemen and ladies?

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

and your starter for 10:
- I live in a rural area and the idea of charging stations for EVs is laughable here. I'll still be a joke in 20 years time too.
- public transport is almost non-existent
- without personal transport people will starve or get ill or both as there are few local shops or services
- so the geniuses in Westminster commit us to some ludicrous target while being told we don't have anywhere near the infrastructure
- now the slow learners have caught up and realise that, they want to ban cars to make their policy work (and have us all on public transport or rent shared EVs - neither of which anyone will provide outside of cities as it's massively uneconomic)
- chances of any government pursuing that strategy getting my vote on a scale of 1 ... 10 are .....

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

and when there's 500 households in a village trying to use one charger for 40 minutes at a time, how's that going to go for you?

l

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

55palfers said:

When China, India, USA, Russia, etc. have "decarbonised" do pop back and collect my car keys.

Until then, bugger off.

You and me both

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

Wooda80 said:

frozen-in-wiltshire said:

and when there's 500 households in a village trying to use one charger for 40 minutes at a time, how's that going to go for you?

l

Only as likely to happen as 500 households in a village all trying to use 4 petrol pumps at the same time. Does your village have a filling station or do you have to share with 500 households in another village too?

Can none of those households have charging points at home?

When you propose points like that quoted it's clear that your main cause for complaint is a fear of change.

I haven't seen any proposals to ban car ownership, unless you can enlighten me?

Car usage, particularly in urban areas, needs to change. As much to alleviate congestion as for a reduction in toxic emissions that arises from it.

Sharing vehicles ( ie public transport ) is the answer. Infrastructure needs to be provided but it has to be done in a cost effective ( for the providers ) manner so it will grow slowly to match the growth in demand.

How do create a growth in demand? Make it less attractive for people to drive their cars.

Those who want ( or need ) to use their cars badly enough will still be able to do so almost everywhere.

What utter rubbish. The committee are trying to encourage shared/rented EV and public transport to make their daft policy work. My comments are all to do with the stupidity of what's in westminster. As to change, I'd quite like an EV, like the idea of them actually. My problem is I have a basic grasp of mathematics, which it appears some do not.
Look around at houses - many are flats, or terraces without parking or garages - where are the cables going to go? Have you tried finding a residents parking space in london (never mind rural areas) - and every single one of them would need a charging point to make this policy work. Who's going to cable that? Where's the energy coming from?
How many amps at 240v will it take to charge (hint - 8 hours for a 13 amp socket for a basic EV, double/triple that for a faster one). Then add up the number of houses with cars, then find out how many amps are coming into the town (second hint, less than that - a lot less). Then add up where that's coming from on the national grid that's running near flat out most of the time (third hint, not enough power stations, more nuclear needed, a lot more).
Looked into an EV a while back and to get a fast charger (I have somewhere to put it as I have a driveway), I'd need a light-industrial three-phase supply run in from the nearest substation. That would cost me around 5k, plus building/road digging etc. so all-in about 10k. That would give me enough amps to charge an EV properly. Chances of everyone doing that? or having enough three-phase supplies for fast chargers nationally are near zero don't you think?

Doesn't take a genius to figure this stuff out really does it?

If you have lived in a rural area you'd know how ludicrous your suggestion of public transport was. The government policy is an urban fantasy for the wealthy - and laughable in the rest of the country in my view. Show me a real plan with real energy supply and deployment plans that are credible and I'll believe you, until then I think not.

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

RobDickinson said:

Amazes me people in England dont yet have electricity at home. Seems they have internet though?


Also arguments pointing fingers at other countries who are 'worse' are no longer legitimate, it isnt a game of brinkmanship, its a crisis and someone needs to take action first.

See my previous post about amps and power requirements. And brush up on your mathematics a bit maybe.

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

321boost said:

RobDickinson said:

Just sold my 2 cars, and,my computer is powered by renewable. hth.

Prove it. Show us how great you are.

Yeah, this ^^^^

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

turbobloke said:

Evanivitch said:

National Grid said:

You could argue that millions of motorists all needing to charge their electric vehicles would require lots of new power stations just to meet this surge in demand. But in fact this is where better consumer engagement and advances in technology both have a part to play.

Apart from that last sentence as a whole being a stroke of futuristic wishful thinking with nothing current (no pun intended) or concrete in sight, it would be helpful to have a translation from the weasel wording.

Better consumer engagement could be persuading more people to install smart meters for remotely managed brownouts and blackouts as that drops demand very nicely, it could also be forgetting to tell people they'll need a new mains fuse to charge a decent EV in a decent timescale, it could be diversions for politicians and consumers to help avert gazes from the eye-watering cost of the infrastructure developments needed, or just more spin. Advances in technology could be from the author's dreams after eating cheese before bedtime - otherwise why not mention what these advances are, or it could be alien technology from Area 51 or Area 52. What it isn't is setting out anything practical or affordable, or achievable within a timescale of goodness knows how long (they don't know), as expected in this context.

You're dead right about the weasel words. However at home you'd need much more than just a new mains fuse. You can't charge an EV (a decent one) of 400volt or above on a normal domestic supply in any sane time.

Quote regarding telsa "You can but it's painfully slow, charging an 85kWh Tesla would take between 24 – 30 hours on a 13amp socket" I have a friend who owns one and he has the fast charger installed at home on three phase. Charges fast overnight with that as the maths says it will, doesn't do so well on 13amp domestic socket.

Some general comments on charging and energy infrastructure - backed up by facts for those others on here who doubt.

I talked to two manufacturers about it (tesla and porsche) and both recommend a light industrial style three phase power feed to the house. That means digging up roads and running new cables from the nearest substation - assuming it's got the capacity in the first place (which it won't when everyone is doing this). I know this for a fact (not guesswork) as around here the substation powers a recent housing estate near me all fitted with electric central heating boilers (obviously very green!). And in winter the 'green' electrically heated houses need a giant diesel generator plugged into the substation to meet demand. Because they can't deliver enough power into it on the cabling infrastructure obviously. And when I say giant generator, I mean one the size of an articulated lorry - a great big orange aggreko one - parked there running for months at a time over winter. How green is that! Is that what National grid mean by "advances in technology"?

And to further prove that the National Grid comment is totally wishful thinking, even if the grid did have enough raw power in the first place (it doesn't, massive shortfall on that), it doesn't have the physical power cables in the ground to get it to where it's needed in the quantity it's needed anyway.

Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

Evanivitch said:

frozen-in-wiltshire said:

You're dead right about the weasel words. However at home you'd need much more than just a new mains fuse. You can't charge an EV (a decent one) of 400volt or above on a normal domestic supply in any sane time.

What has the voltage got to do with the rate of charge or the size of battery? Please, educate me.
battery capacity determined by VA/kwh - volts and amps drive that formula. Pushing watts into the battery therefore determined by volts and amps, thus to get enough kwh into the battery the number of amps is proportional to voltage. At a fairly low point too many amps melt the power cable therefore you need more volts and fewer amps to avoid it melting. And more cables (3 phase) to get enough of both into the car in a sensible time. I think some of the fast chargers even have cooled cables to reduce overheating during charge cycles.

Frozen-in-the-past said:

I talked to two manufacturers about it (tesla and porsche) and both recommend a light industrial style three phase power feed to the house. That means digging up roads and running new cables from the nearest substation - assuming it's got the capacity in the first place (which it won't when everyone is doing this).

For what purpose? For normal domestic use or because you wanted to be able to charge as fast as physically possible? Because I don't believe any manufacturer normally recommends domestic 3 phase.
Just telling you what two manufacturers of EVs told me - if you don't believe me, ask them yourself.

Frozen-in-the-past said:

I know this for a fact (not guesswork) as around here the substation powers a recent housing estate near me all fitted with electric central heating boilers (obviously very green!). And in winter the 'green' electrically heated houses need a giant diesel generator plugged into the substation to meet demand. Because they can't deliver enough power into it on the cabling infrastructure obviously. And when I say giant generator, I mean one the size of an articulated lorry - a great big orange aggreko one - parked there running for months at a time over winter. How green is that! Is that what National grid mean by "advances in technology"?

Great corner case
You miss the point - the original comment was that in rural areas the government policy is a joke - the above is evidence proving my point. If you prefer to believe the government BS instead that's up to you.

Frozen-in-the-past said:

And to further prove that the National Grid comment is totally wishful thinking, even if the grid did have enough raw power in the first place (it doesn't, massive shortfall on that), it doesn't have the physical power cables in the ground to get it to where it's needed in the quantity it's needed anyway.

Maybe their "advances in future technology" means star-trek style energy transfer beams - so we won't need any new cables?

Prove what? Where's your evidence?

The point is as others have said, the forecast of 'it'll all be fine' by national grid - is based on fantasy - not fact. Again if you prefer to believe in the national grid power fairies making it all better, that's up to you

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

Evanivitch said:

Ziplobb said:

You can't
if you live in a rural area its a pipedream to go electric

Why? Infact, I know people find them excellent as a local runabout because the local petrol station has either permanently closed or has peculiar opening hours, so they begrudgingly have to go to town to get fuel, which is a job in itself.

Electric vans and 4x4s (and at the very minimum PHEVs) are coming to market quickly in the next few years. Electric tractors are a reality now, but perhaps not for the same reasons that everyone else needs one.

This is exactly the point of my original post - Ziplobb is dead right - the idea of electric vehicles in rural areas is total joke. And will remain so for decades without massive cabling & infrastructure upgrades.
Only someone living in Islington would ask 'why' - if you lived here you'd know why and how laughable the whole idea is. Earlier posts have said this and said why. Read some of the earlier posts about power supply, charge time, infrastructure, and add that to the near zero public transport, total lack of infrastructure and colossal expense of fixing it in most rural areas (90%+ of the UK is rural). For ***s sake, we've not even got decent mobile coverage or broadband! Get real - electric vehicles in rural areas? dream on.
And whatever moron thinks electric tractors are the answer needs to stop smoking weed and get a cab out of Islington for a day. The tractors around here are the size of a small house and plough fields of hundreds of acres at a time. The tractors in common use around here are 300-700 hp and huge. I've no idea what KWh they'd need on electric and what charging time would be - but it won't be a few minutes on a 13 amp socket I reckon.

Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:36

Edited by frozen-in-wiltshire on Sunday 1st September 21:45

[frozen-in-wiltshire]

Read the earlier posts, and forecast what happens when everyone in your hamlet/village/town wants to charge at the same time (school run, after work charge for next day clashing with evening cooking demand, overnight clashing with electric heating demand, winter electric demand cannot be fulfilled on existing grid already etc.). Add that to all the rural industrial need (tractors ha ha ha), road freight etc, and then you will see that you won't have power for long.

The point is that the flexibility of private car ownership is impossible to deliver nationally with our power grid infrastructure in any sane timescale at any sane cost. So the only way to do it is to erode or cease private car ownership to the point of near or total non-existence. Think about it.