Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?

[AstonZagato]

A couple of threads running on the use of tracking but I'd like to do a simple poll of whether people would use it or not. Something like this helped the Chinese and Singaporeans to attack Covid.

There are many reasons why people might not use it or feel that Big Brother is spying on them

There are many reasons to think it might have false positives or false negatives.

There are some obvious benefits too.

However, I'm intrigued to know how many people would be happy to be tracked, if there was a government sanctioned app which enabled a lower lockdown regime.

Please feel free to comment on why you would do what you choose above.

For me, I'm a "Yes". Public health benefit (and hopefully greater freedom of movement in the short term is worth it. No coercion would be required.

I'd be deleting it after the crisis abates though.

[AstonZagato]

pip t said:

Roofless Toothless said:

Our GP surgery was checking email addresses a week or two back. I wondered why.

Although my son and DIL have insisted on doing the supermarket shopping for us, I thought I would try applying for home delivery. I didn't get any further into the system than entering my email address. It promptly chucked me out by saying I wasn't on the NHS at risk list. (True enough, but I am 71 and have health issues.) I have never, ever given Sainsburys my email address.

It seems to me that the NHS has provided the supermarkets not only our email addresses but also access to, if not the details of our medical records, but information derived from them.

I am not altogether happy about that. I am sure life insurance companies for one would be interested in this data. Why should it have escaped the custody of the NHS?

Could also be that a system is in operation where the Sainsburys site automatically queries an NHS database of 'at risk' email addresses, and the NHS returns a yes/no answer, rather than the NHS having given a list to Sainsburys.

I would take that as being an indication that the NHS has NOT given your email to Sainsburys. Your email was not recognised, so not deemed worthy of access.

[AstonZagato]

Jasandjules said:

Most people who would benefit from it (elderly) will not have a phone or know how to use it - I live in a village with many elderly, few of them have moblie phones let alone smart phones or the knowledge to download this app and half don't even have the internet at home.......

I suspect they fall into the category who should be self isolating regardless. It is the 20-60yo cohort, who need to get out to work who will benefit the most. And who should be careful around the 60+ cohort (so knowing your Covid risk is valuable).

[AstonZagato]

pip t said:

The fact they'd already started creating the app and are now integrating the Apple/Google system doesn't fill me with confidence in it being implemented entirely as published by the tech companies. Plus the fact that the NHS may use data for 'care and research' - if it's implemented properly it doesn't generate that kind of data....

They can build some optional stuff in to help them analyse spread of the virus without compromising patient confidentiality.

For example, when you set up the app, it could ask you to enter: age, sex, ethnicity, first three letters of home postcode, first there letters of work postcode. Those could all be optional but would help track demographics and hotspots in the virus. It could also be only released to the NHS if you test positive. Lots of stuff could be built in without identifying individuals or locations that is helpful in the fight.

[AstonZagato]

No worried. I'm as interested in people's reasons why they wouldn't. (I would, as I said in the first post).

Some looks to me like tin-foil hattery. Some sensible concerns. Some luddites. Some practical concerns. Some troglodytes.

It also amuses me that most smart phone users happily give up far more data to the software houses and shopping apps they use than they'd ever give up to the NHS but remain adamant that this is an invasion of privacy.

[AstonZagato]

Dr Hannah Fry weighing in with a negative academic paper
https://twitter.com/FryRsquared/status/12573978050...

[AstonZagato]

Kermit power said:

So it would make life harder for criminal scumbags of various shades? What's not to like?

I'm a supporter in general of the tracking app but there is a useful maxim here.

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

(Though the context in which this was said was very different. He was arguing for more taxation in order to for the government to defend frontiers. He wanted that tax to come from the Penn family, who were offering a lump sum to avoid future taxation. It therefore actually meant pretty much the opposite of how that phrase is now used.)

[AstonZagato]

grumbledoak said:

tangerine_sedge said:

Fixed that for you

The same people will have gps on their phones and browse the internet willy-nilly and not think twice that google is gathering a metric st-tonne of information about them.

By default (i.e. if you dont go out of your way to disable gps and block all trackers on your phone) Google knows :

<stuff>

And what can Google do with all that data beyond showing you an advert for something you are more likely to buy than a product chosen at random?

Stuff like influence elections, disseminate misinformation efficiently and effectively, create civil strife, if it were to suit their objectives.

Watch "The Great Hack" for some good examples.

[AstonZagato]

pip t said:

Yes, most of us share a vast amount of data with commercial companies on the internet, but, in general, the main thing they can do with that data is try and sell you stuff. There's a few edge case worries about it affecting insurance premiums etc, but as a general point, they use your data to target advertising. It's creepy for sure, but fundamentally not a risk to your liberty.

They could sell that data to people who could use it for nefarious means which can influence your life and liberty. As I said, watch "The Great Hack" and see if you still think your browsing data is only of value to people who want you to buy their stuff.

[AstonZagato]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

[AstonZagato]

China attributed at least part of its success in its use of a tracking app.

It is not perfect, never could be perfect. Is it better than nothing? Yes.

[AstonZagato]

Electro1980 said:

edh said:

Murph7355 said:

edh said:

Switching to Decentralised Model...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53095336

Is there nothing this govt won't screw up?

Tricky one...

Is admitting a mistake and correcting it "screwing up"?

Admitting a mistake and correcting it with another mistake would count in my book. Whether this counts, time will tell...

Would you rather we had government that refused to admit to mistakes and carried on regardless?

I'd rather they made the right decision first time. It wasn't hard.

Very few people agreed with the centralised / self reporting model. It wasn't a "game-changer"

It’s not even getting it right the first time, but if they had given up when everyone told them it wouldn’t work, when it was/should have failed QA testing, or even at dev stage given the spectacular failing. It looks very much like they carried on for political reasons.

Interestingly they are now claiming that they have been working on both apps at the same time anyway, but the app that uses standard APIs and should take a few weeks to develop is taking about 6 months...

I may be wrong but thought that, when the decision was taken to build the app, Google and Apple hadn't announced their API so the government's decision to build it themselves was the only decsion they could have taken at that time.

That said, when the API was announced, the decision to stick with their own solution was bizarre.

[AstonZagato]

Welshbeef said:

If you have an iPhone go to settings,privacy, health.

Then what do you see? Covid19 exposure logging (but turned off).

This was auto installed on android and iPhones this week a forced update. You cannot turn the logging on or off its blocked out.

This is nanny state and enforced tracking.

Nothing to worry about.

1. It is only the background API which allows trackers to work. It does nothing on its own.
2. You would need to download and install an app for it to activate. If you don't, it will do precisely nothing.
3. You can turn it off.
4. It works with bluetooth. Turn off bluetooth and it can't do anything.
5. It works on the decentralised model, so it isn’t telling “big brother” anything.
6. It doesn't use your GPS, so the government doesn't know where you are
7. It doesn't allow access to your contacts, so the government won't know with whom you are friends.
8. It would collect less data about you than you give to any number of companies like Facebook, Google, Amazon.
9. You can stop it working by wearing one of these:

[AstonZagato]

Ntv said:

Is there anything to stop them changing the app in ways (undisclosed) that you don’t agree with?

Yes, absolutely. To be in the Apple/Google app store, it has to comply with their stringent privacy rules for the exposure apps - which it currently does. If it gets changed in a manner that breaches the rules, then the update won't get uploaded to the app store and so it won't get to your phone.

If Apple/Google were to allow a more lax privacy system (unlikely) then you just delete the app from your phone.

[AstonZagato]

poo at Paul's said:

But I thought the track and trace system or whatever it is called was meant to not give enough away to tell who it was ?

That can't be the case. Imagine you have only met one person outside of your household in the last two weeks. That person then tests positive and you are contacted. You will be able to work out who it was from whatever info they give you, however anonymised. From the description you've given, it sounds like T&T is working exactly as it should.

[AstonZagato]

glazbagun said:

baptistsan said:

BlackLabel said:

“ Contact-tracing data harvested from pubs and restaurants being sold on”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/contact-tracing...

Read that too. I should be surprised by this, sadly not.
But, you know, it's to save lives

If this doesn't break data protection law, the law should be changed and some high profile examples made. In any case, the paper should be naming names.

Just to be clear "The concerns do not relate to the official NHS Covid contact-tracing app."