Nurses, Rail Staff and Now Driving Examiners
Discussion
So according to the BBC (link below) driving examiners are going to strike now. So is ot a case of masses of workers are under paid and have been for a long time, taxes reduce take home pay too much or are they all just greedy.
I suspect its 1 and 2 but where will this end, will all sorts of workers up and down the country strike now will the UK really start to go all French every year with mass strikes. Will they government look at taxes on employment will thoes in the middle get some relief or will it all be brushed under the carpet.
BBC News - Driving examiners across UK to stage strikes over pay
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63800593
I suspect its 1 and 2 but where will this end, will all sorts of workers up and down the country strike now will the UK really start to go all French every year with mass strikes. Will they government look at taxes on employment will thoes in the middle get some relief or will it all be brushed under the carpet.
BBC News - Driving examiners across UK to stage strikes over pay
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63800593
The issue I thunk is multi facetted
1) wages are low in the UK compared to other nations
2) direct taxes are high when you consider NI IT Council Tax
3) benefits fall away very quickly and long before you are rich you loose tax free allowance
4) the state is very large so tax cuts mean job cuts pay rises tax rises
5) the welfare state still encourages people to work less to get more.
How do you fix all of these an make everyone better off.....I have no idea
1) wages are low in the UK compared to other nations
2) direct taxes are high when you consider NI IT Council Tax
3) benefits fall away very quickly and long before you are rich you loose tax free allowance
4) the state is very large so tax cuts mean job cuts pay rises tax rises
5) the welfare state still encourages people to work less to get more.
How do you fix all of these an make everyone better off.....I have no idea
ChocolateFrog said:
Gecko1978 said:
I believe good starting pay is Aldi manager trainiee IIRC its 40k plus car straight out of uni, is it less stressful than being a nurse?
It's a s
t job. A couple of my Army mates went into Aldi's program and left pretty soon after.
IIRC it's quite a bit more than 40k, nearer 50 now I think.
GroundEffect said:
For some reason I am drawn to teachers as partners. My partner (of 5 years) is a secondary teacher in Spanish (she is Spanish) at a top grammar school. My ex (of 4 years) was a primary school teacher/head of department at a really challenging school in one of the most deprived parts of Basildon.
The idea that they have an easy job is insulting enough to be ignored. But I agree with the sentiment - I couldn't be one.
Typical work day is get to school between 7am and 745am (expectation to be there before 8am to get things set up before kids arrive).
Work through all breaks.
When kids leave you can actually start work of marking, planning, attending department meetings, doing admin.
Leave school at kick-out time of 6pm.
More of a problem for primary teaching, but typically work in the evening of 5 to 6 days a week. The little kids bring TONNES of marking as everything has to be evidenced on their progress. So each kid has a learning journey that has to have an audit-trail and that requires marking most days. And the teacher will have >30 kids. When I was with her, I did all the house chores (including all cooking) as she would be working through, stopping for food, then continuing. Finally pen down at around 9pm. Every work day. Every week. Every year. Over the 4 years we were togehter, I'd say an average of 60-65hrs a week working.
With secondary teaching the hours aren't so bad - the marking requirements actually reduce, but the kids are more stressful to deal with. My partner is dealing with one set of girls right now who are causing her to have to cry to let out the stress/frustration between classes. Kids who decide they just don't want to cooperate, and who have belligerent parents, really can run rough-shod over teachers and make their life misery. Average must be around 50hrs a week.
All for ~£30k (with a masters education).
No thanks.
So simply how much should they get paid and how should it be funded.The idea that they have an easy job is insulting enough to be ignored. But I agree with the sentiment - I couldn't be one.
Typical work day is get to school between 7am and 745am (expectation to be there before 8am to get things set up before kids arrive).
Work through all breaks.
When kids leave you can actually start work of marking, planning, attending department meetings, doing admin.
Leave school at kick-out time of 6pm.
More of a problem for primary teaching, but typically work in the evening of 5 to 6 days a week. The little kids bring TONNES of marking as everything has to be evidenced on their progress. So each kid has a learning journey that has to have an audit-trail and that requires marking most days. And the teacher will have >30 kids. When I was with her, I did all the house chores (including all cooking) as she would be working through, stopping for food, then continuing. Finally pen down at around 9pm. Every work day. Every week. Every year. Over the 4 years we were togehter, I'd say an average of 60-65hrs a week working.
With secondary teaching the hours aren't so bad - the marking requirements actually reduce, but the kids are more stressful to deal with. My partner is dealing with one set of girls right now who are causing her to have to cry to let out the stress/frustration between classes. Kids who decide they just don't want to cooperate, and who have belligerent parents, really can run rough-shod over teachers and make their life misery. Average must be around 50hrs a week.
All for ~£30k (with a masters education).
No thanks.
valiant said:
Abso-flipping-lutely.
Look at any thread where CEOs wages are discussed and we’ll have pages defending telephone number salaries and yet on the RMT thread the same people were critical of the union leader’s rather modest salary.
Same with bankers and any city jobs. We had a thread recently where posters claimed to be hard done by on £150k with the aborted tax cut and yet on the teachers thread they’re vilified for not being able to cope on a joint £90k salary.
With some, it’s simply public sector bad, private sector good.
You have to look at the context of the product provided and how its paid for.Look at any thread where CEOs wages are discussed and we’ll have pages defending telephone number salaries and yet on the RMT thread the same people were critical of the union leader’s rather modest salary.
Same with bankers and any city jobs. We had a thread recently where posters claimed to be hard done by on £150k with the aborted tax cut and yet on the teachers thread they’re vilified for not being able to cope on a joint £90k salary.
With some, it’s simply public sector bad, private sector good.
CEO get millions paid for by firms profits no profits no job etc (yes firms make losses often a ceo is brought in to turn it around think changes at rbs)
Bankers private sector again profits based being asked go pay yet more tax for benefits they won't get
Teachers in the example on top 20% salary paid for via tax asking for more which can only come via tax.
Nurses medium or less salary asking for pay to match inflation which again can only come from tax
The 1st 2 get a reward based on their profits from their work the second two get a reward based on profits from the first 2 (other jobs exist). So yes nurses and teachers and anyone cane and should strike if they feel it's only option but they have to then take from the pool of taxes which some groups might feel they already pay enough and don't get a good return from the services they already pay for.
There is not a solution that keeps everyone happy. So I support the strikers but I don't think they will get what they want sadly
vulture1 said:
Pay rises should be linked to how people acted during the pandemic.
Nurses doctors care staff 10% put themselves on the line and at risk.
Travel related , kept going as much as they could 6%
Teachers , munfed and moaned about kids in school worked from home 5%
Pensioners totals during the pandemic. Came to the shops EVERY DAY and once they were jabbed they hung about in groups chatting to their mates. Honestly lockdowns protected mainly them and they took the piss.
3%
But then it's the pensioners that vote tory and the others that vote Labour so government was too scared not to give granny amd grandad 10%
"Sits back and puts flame suit on"
They can have what the tax take supports so as with care allowance on Ni let's just say x% will need a tax rise of Y we could even vote on itNurses doctors care staff 10% put themselves on the line and at risk.
Travel related , kept going as much as they could 6%
Teachers , munfed and moaned about kids in school worked from home 5%
Pensioners total
s during the pandemic. Came to the shops EVERY DAY and once they were jabbed they hung about in groups chatting to their mates. Honestly lockdowns protected mainly them and they took the piss.3%
But then it's the pensioners that vote tory and the others that vote Labour so government was too scared not to give granny amd grandad 10%
"Sits back and puts flame suit on"
My guess is the government position on all of this is the miners strike approach simply wait these groups out. Other than a GE in 2025 I don't think they will move now. The tory party were supposed to be the party of business, growth, personal wealth. Boris and Rishi are an anathema of that an just about greed an status. Truss approach was arguably growth but in the most ham fisted way since Mr Ham met Mr Fist way back when. Sadly not since Blair (basically a tory in a different suit) have we had governments of growth we have had hand outs and robbing Peter to pay Paul just making sure no one looked while the guys in the middle took a cut for themselves.
I wish the strikers would go further work to rule, minimum service force a GE. Then each party can put forward a solution to this in a manifesto.
I wish the strikers would go further work to rule, minimum service force a GE. Then each party can put forward a solution to this in a manifesto.
Gweeds said:
Tight financial controls. The Tories.
Right.
Tight control feels to me like making people in the middle on paye salaries pay ever more for less service. It's a hard sell to be frank. Higher interest rates have not helped inflation just increased living costs an made people poorer along with higher tax.Right.
Energy and food security should be the solution and make jobs their part of leveling up. Instead we have allowed people to face huge energy bills will firms make billions trading energy futures. Green energy seems to be more costly less efficient and likely unable to meet needs. Doesn't mean we should not go for green options but it needs a balance.
When your PM and a previous ones can jump ship an move to calafornia when they are done does not feel like they have most peoples needs in mind
Vasco said:
I see today's reports refer to the nurses union leader asking ' ...why is Sunak not at the negotiating table.' ?
Possibly because that is not his job ?
The people engaged in negotiations seem nit to have the authority to flex the offer to a level that might be acceptable hence the ask for the PM.Possibly because that is not his job ?
However the idea of the PM negotiating is just a political trap. He either looks weak if he gives in or like he does not understand peoples needs if he refuses.
It's a no win for him. However if in the background he does not pull some leavers then there is a risk the government fails.
irc said:
Gecko1978 said:
However the idea of the PM negotiating is just a political trap. He either looks weak if he gives in or like he does not understand peoples needs if he refuses.
It's a no win for him. However if in the background he does not pull some leavers then there is a risk the government fails.
Not sure how the govt can fail. They have a sufficient majority. With the polls the way they are there is no way Sunak will call an election before late 2024.It's a no win for him. However if in the background he does not pull some leavers then there is a risk the government fails.
As for the strikes? The country has got used to living with strikes. The govt is not going to give in and give any public sector group of workers a 10% pay rise. Why should they? As above - they just look weak. Nobody is going to say "wonderful!" "Thanks!" "I'll vote Tory in the next election".
The only (slim) chance the Tories hav e of not being utterly destroyed in 2024 is if the economy looks better and inflation is well down. Granting a series of high pay rises will not help the fight against inflation.
Of the government say no to pay rises an nurses stop working it's too opposing forces at its extream car crash victims dying at the side of the road becuase ambulance never comes or it gets to A&E an no nurses. An the union say the government will not engage with us. Things can change we had a pm for 44 days nothing is set in stone
BBC News - Consultants want up to £262 an hour to cover strike days for junior doctors
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246
So pro rata 0.5m a year (in the extreme example)....can't help think that maybe banning Dr's working via own limited company has resulted in agencies demanding these rates....blame the government. Simply tax people to the point they don't feel rewarded they withdraw services and then when you need them shock horror the number they ask for is way more than you would have had to pay
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246
So pro rata 0.5m a year (in the extreme example)....can't help think that maybe banning Dr's working via own limited company has resulted in agencies demanding these rates....blame the government. Simply tax people to the point they don't feel rewarded they withdraw services and then when you need them shock horror the number they ask for is way more than you would have had to pay
Vasco said:
egor110 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
egor110 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Striking really is just a public sector thing nowadays, isn't it?
Royal mail were privatised , dustbin workers , bus drivers all privatised.Nhs staff could go and work anywhere in the world but i guess some of them don't want to jump ship and leave this country in the s
t , they just want a bit more money and a few less hours .JagLover said:
Sheepshanks said:
Interesting listening to analysis of The Budget they're talking about how many people are going to be dragged into paying tax, or paying tax at higher rates, based on the assumption that everyone's pay is going up 10%.
Private sector pay growth currently running at 6% I think (last three months growth on annualised basis). So isn't that out of line.OBR forecasting inflation to fall back to 3% by end 2023. Though of course we will need to wait and see if that happens.
Flooble said:
pavarotti1980 said:
The RCN have really made an arse of this and actually weakened their position in terms of negotiation and support. For them to insist on going ahead with it despite NHS Employers demonstrating clearly it is unlawful and allowing DH to take them to court is pretty amateur behaviour. Yet still that Cullen women is jumping up and down on her soapbox. This is all going in the direction of nursing roles being removed from AfC but that could prove worse than accepting the offer. Sometimes keeping fighting on is not always the best action.
I wholeheartedly support their challenge for better pay but that should not be laser focused as the RCN have it and realise the bigger picture. In all likelihood there will not be a Tory SoS after the next election so lets not ps off the civil servants at DH too much and scupper any further pay award discussion in the future
Your last paragraph is a really important point - in 18 months the Unions should be having an easy ride getting money out of a Labour government that will have a truly thumping majority. So why go crazy now?I wholeheartedly support their challenge for better pay but that should not be laser focused as the RCN have it and realise the bigger picture. In all likelihood there will not be a Tory SoS after the next election so lets not p
s off the civil servants at DH too much and scupper any further pay award discussion in the futureGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff