Is this fraud?
Discussion
Pretty sure it is...
The FiL has offered to pay for the OH's rather large garage bill after the turbo blew up. Fine so far.
However, he's asked her to request the invoice under the name of his business. She doesn't work for him and neither do I so hard to argue the car is for business use!
I am a bit peeved for the obvious moral reason (tax evasion doesn't sit well with me, we all have to pay our way etc) and also for the potential exposure to wrong-doing for me and my wife (I am the legal owner of the vehicle as I paid for the car originally).
Am I looking at this the right way or missing something?
Thanks, folks
/ps sorry for new account, bit sensitive.
The FiL has offered to pay for the OH's rather large garage bill after the turbo blew up. Fine so far.
However, he's asked her to request the invoice under the name of his business. She doesn't work for him and neither do I so hard to argue the car is for business use!
I am a bit peeved for the obvious moral reason (tax evasion doesn't sit well with me, we all have to pay our way etc) and also for the potential exposure to wrong-doing for me and my wife (I am the legal owner of the vehicle as I paid for the car originally).
Am I looking at this the right way or missing something?
Thanks, folks
/ps sorry for new account, bit sensitive.
He's automotive audio supplier.
Tbh I rarely get involved where the in-laws are concerned but in the 10 years since I've been with the OH I've rarely seen them offer their daughter a hand and this was quite nice for the wife, rather than relying on me to plug the gap as I am usually only too happy to do - just a shame it seems to come with 'strings'.
Tbh I rarely get involved where the in-laws are concerned but in the 10 years since I've been with the OH I've rarely seen them offer their daughter a hand and this was quite nice for the wife, rather than relying on me to plug the gap as I am usually only too happy to do - just a shame it seems to come with 'strings'.
Simpo Two said:
It's the FiL and possibly the garage taking the risk, not you. By putting it through his business he'll still end up paying, merely (incorrectly) offsetting some against tax.
Perhaps.But in asking my wife to request the invoice in the name of the business she has no connection with, surely she loses plausible deniability? I think it's this willingness to place her in a potentially awkward situation that has got my back up tbh. Maybe it's a case of "everyone does it" but something doesn't sit right with me.
EddieSteadyGo said:
BarryTone said:
I think it's this willingness to place her in a potentially awkward situation that has got my back up tbh. Maybe it's a case of "everyone does it" but something doesn't sit right with me.
Then pay the f
king bill yourself. Your FiL is offering to pay his daughter's bill. Why come onto a forum and question if he is breaking the law? Just say thanks for the offer, and pay it yourself.Pretty sure my OP was framed as an enquiry, not a statement. Let me spell it out. I don't want to snub or undermine my father-in-law unnecessarily, or upset my wife if he has a legitimate reason to make this request - but I couldn't think of one - IANAL!
As it happens I work in a sensitive area and need to keep squeaky clean, but that and moral issues aside, I don't want to see my wife getting in hot water unwittingly. Is that not reasonable?
Edited by BarryTone on Wednesday 18th July 18:21
Badda said:
BarryTone said:
I don't want to see my wife getting in hot water unwittingly.
Who do you think 'they' would go after if anything was wrong with a tax return - the person who paid the bill and whose tax is was or the owner of a car? But I don't know what the knock-on effect is. I'm assuming he would be recording the vehicle as business use at his end? What effect does that have on her insurance which is not business use? If she had a big smash would this flag up somewhere? etc etc
heebeegeetee said:
I'm sorry but what possible hot water do you think your wife could get into?
Well, I mentioned some concerns over the effects on her insurance... Then there's the fact that she is (in theory) asking for the invoice to be made out in the business name, that would make her party to the offence no? Look, I get that it's all ifs, buts and maybes but I'm really just looking to confirm my suspicion that I am right to question the motives behind the request. Seems I am because no one has put forward a plausible reason why the request would otherwise be made than to claw back the tax.
fwiw the moral position is the one that will make my final decision. I am merely interested in the legal stance as I'd rather say to the FIL; " sorry, seems a bit risky for your daughter" (saves his blushes) than say; "sorry, I think what your suggesting is scummy as f*uk". Similarly, I'd rather tell the wife we're not taking the offer on legal grounds than "your folks are morally bankrupt".
In other words, if there was some risk to my wife that would suit me nicely as it would give me an out.
EddieSteadyGo said:
Look, you know full well that your FiL isn't going to legitimately pay to fix your wife's car, based on your description of the proposed method.
In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
I get what you're saying.In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
Just paying the bill myself isn't an issue but it will cause embarrassment and likely a bit of stress with the OH. I've been an additional rate taxpayer since my mid-twenties so I do understand what it feels like to pay tax! It's not a lack of appreciation on my behalf, just frustration.
I also wanted to understand the implications before acting in haste ("When you can't see the angles no more, you're in trouble").
Been considering just saying the garage wouldn't do it... but not sure how believable that is.
jonamv8 said:
My god. I’ve heard about being straightndown the line but you’re going to risk alienating someone who’s doing you a favour
Maybe you hadn't heard but his country isn't exactly awash with public money.If everyone takes the view that it's just a little bit here and there then it all adds up to a place that's worse for us all. It's called civic responsibility.
Sorry, been away for a few days!
I’ve had a catch up and would certainly wish to thank Eric for his input - I too thought the question reasonable enough, but have been around these parts long enough to expect some tttery from those who find such an open enquiry naive.
To those who failed to understand what I have already spelt out; this is not a question of cost for myself or my wife.
Families/relationships are complex and there is some history that would be too long-winded to explain, but let’s just say me throwing my cheque book at it would likely not go down well on her side of the family. I am tacitly ‘expected’ to let FIL help her out on this occasion, and have been told as much by my wife.
I guess, like some others here, I found the apparent generous act suffered a loss of credibility as a result of what I suspected was a tax dodge.
Oh and I’m quite capable of making my own call on what to do but I thought the situation interesting enough to warrant chewing over with others. And as stated at outset, was keen to ensure I hadn’t missed something that cast a different light on matters.
Badda, you have been quite vocal and I’d be grateful if you could clarify why you find yourself “amazed”. It’s not clear to me why you find me naive? Are you suggesting that a more worldly man such as yourself would just shrug and accept that this stuff is rife? Or that by having principles I am an obvious pleb?
I’m not seeking an argument, but on the one hand you seem happy to pour scorn on me for not just cracking on with it, but then tack on the qualifier that you of course “don’t approve of tax evasion”... Not sure that’s how the game of cricket is played.
I’ve had a catch up and would certainly wish to thank Eric for his input - I too thought the question reasonable enough, but have been around these parts long enough to expect some t
ttery from those who find such an open enquiry naive. To those who failed to understand what I have already spelt out; this is not a question of cost for myself or my wife.
Families/relationships are complex and there is some history that would be too long-winded to explain, but let’s just say me throwing my cheque book at it would likely not go down well on her side of the family. I am tacitly ‘expected’ to let FIL help her out on this occasion, and have been told as much by my wife.
I guess, like some others here, I found the apparent generous act suffered a loss of credibility as a result of what I suspected was a tax dodge.
Oh and I’m quite capable of making my own call on what to do but I thought the situation interesting enough to warrant chewing over with others. And as stated at outset, was keen to ensure I hadn’t missed something that cast a different light on matters.
Badda, you have been quite vocal and I’d be grateful if you could clarify why you find yourself “amazed”. It’s not clear to me why you find me naive? Are you suggesting that a more worldly man such as yourself would just shrug and accept that this stuff is rife? Or that by having principles I am an obvious pleb?
I’m not seeking an argument, but on the one hand you seem happy to pour scorn on me for not just cracking on with it, but then tack on the qualifier that you of course “don’t approve of tax evasion”... Not sure that’s how the game of cricket is played.
Edited by BarryTone on Wednesday 25th July 23:55
BlackLabel said:
NorthDave said:
Your tone in the original message implies maybe your wife doesn't have equal access to funds - I would find this more awkward than anything.
Was thinking the same. OP you’re acting as if you’re doing your wife some huge favour by “throwing your chequebook at it” lol.
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