Builder almost brought the house down..literally
Discussion
Had an angry and sleepless night on behalf of my daughter who is having building work done, which has gone wrong on a major level. Would welcome advice on her next steps:
She and her partner bought an old three storey country house last month and has loads of work to do (heating, bathrooms, kitchen et al). Not wanting to take risks with the key work they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder to do the key work, notably taking down a dividing wall to create a new kitchen diner. The builder sent a Structural engineer to do the building regs as they were taking out a 3m piece of the outside wall to connect the 3 storey house to an existing 2 storey extension to form the new kitchen dinner.
Work started this week on the wall and she had been warned that there might be some movement when the wall was removed. They knocked through and they had a number of smallish cracks appear in the plaster in rooms above the knock-through which the builders didnt seem worried about. They installed one of the 3 RSJs and left for the weekend with acrow props holding up the wall. Overnight the cracks got much larger and unble to contact the bulder she called another local bulder. It seems they hadn't put in enough props (4 single props only under the wall, not on needles through the wall), there were no cross braces on the acrows and they had used lengths of timber ( from the pictures it looks like lengths of lath). Their plumbr on site says at one point they had only once acrow in place during the work. It looks like they have lateral movement meaning doors and windows above dont now open/close properly. It also looks like they had taken the cheapest and easiert option with the RSJ which will lead to an obstrusive boxed in beam across the room when they could have used a method which produces a less obstrusive beam.
Her patner finally managed to get the builder out yesterday evening who admits the workmen haven't supported the wall fully and assured them that they will fix it.
They have asked the builder to have the structural engineer on site on Monday to give a report on the potential damge and outline repairs.
What else should they be doing and if the builder does move quickly and fix it all, what should they do.
She is already worried about unseen future problems and how she can protect about that.
She and her partner bought an old three storey country house last month and has loads of work to do (heating, bathrooms, kitchen et al). Not wanting to take risks with the key work they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder to do the key work, notably taking down a dividing wall to create a new kitchen diner. The builder sent a Structural engineer to do the building regs as they were taking out a 3m piece of the outside wall to connect the 3 storey house to an existing 2 storey extension to form the new kitchen dinner.
Work started this week on the wall and she had been warned that there might be some movement when the wall was removed. They knocked through and they had a number of smallish cracks appear in the plaster in rooms above the knock-through which the builders didnt seem worried about. They installed one of the 3 RSJs and left for the weekend with acrow props holding up the wall. Overnight the cracks got much larger and unble to contact the bulder she called another local bulder. It seems they hadn't put in enough props (4 single props only under the wall, not on needles through the wall), there were no cross braces on the acrows and they had used lengths of timber ( from the pictures it looks like lengths of lath). Their plumbr on site says at one point they had only once acrow in place during the work. It looks like they have lateral movement meaning doors and windows above dont now open/close properly. It also looks like they had taken the cheapest and easiert option with the RSJ which will lead to an obstrusive boxed in beam across the room when they could have used a method which produces a less obstrusive beam.
Her patner finally managed to get the builder out yesterday evening who admits the workmen haven't supported the wall fully and assured them that they will fix it.
They have asked the builder to have the structural engineer on site on Monday to give a report on the potential damge and outline repairs.
What else should they be doing and if the builder does move quickly and fix it all, what should they do.
She is already worried about unseen future problems and how she can protect about that.
Cogcog said:
Had an angry and sleepless night on behalf of my daughter who is having building work done, which has gone wrong on a major level. Would welcome advice on her next steps:
She and her partner bought an old three storey country house last month and has loads of work to do (heating, bathrooms, kitchen et al). Not wanting to take risks with the key work they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder to do the key work, notably taking down a dividing wall to create a new kitchen diner. The builder sent a Structural engineer to do the building regs as they were taking out a 3m piece of the outside wall to connect the 3 storey house to an existing 2 storey extension to form the new kitchen dinner.
Work started this week on the wall and she had been warned that there might be some movement when the wall was removed. They knocked through and they had a number of smallish cracks appear in the plaster in rooms above the knock-through which the builders didnt seem worried about. They installed one of the 3 RSJs and left for the weekend with acrow props holding up the wall. Overnight the cracks got much larger and unble to contact the bulder she called another local bulder. It seems they hadn't put in enough props (4 single props only under the wall, not on needles through the wall), there were no cross braces on the acrows and they had used lengths of timber ( from the pictures it looks like lengths of lath). Their plumbr on site says at one point they had only once acrow in place during the work. It looks like they have lateral movement meaning doors and windows above dont now open/close properly. It also looks like they had taken the cheapest and easiert option with the RSJ which will lead to an obstrusive boxed in beam across the room when they could have used a method which produces a less obstrusive beam.
Her patner finally managed to get the builder out yesterday evening who admits the workmen haven't supported the wall fully and assured them that they will fix it.
They have asked the builder to have the structural engineer on site on Monday to give a report on the potential damge and outline repairs.
What else should they be doing and if the builder does not move quickly and fix it all, what should they do?
She is already worried about unseen future problems and how she can protect about that.
She and her partner bought an old three storey country house last month and has loads of work to do (heating, bathrooms, kitchen et al). Not wanting to take risks with the key work they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder to do the key work, notably taking down a dividing wall to create a new kitchen diner. The builder sent a Structural engineer to do the building regs as they were taking out a 3m piece of the outside wall to connect the 3 storey house to an existing 2 storey extension to form the new kitchen dinner.
Work started this week on the wall and she had been warned that there might be some movement when the wall was removed. They knocked through and they had a number of smallish cracks appear in the plaster in rooms above the knock-through which the builders didnt seem worried about. They installed one of the 3 RSJs and left for the weekend with acrow props holding up the wall. Overnight the cracks got much larger and unble to contact the bulder she called another local bulder. It seems they hadn't put in enough props (4 single props only under the wall, not on needles through the wall), there were no cross braces on the acrows and they had used lengths of timber ( from the pictures it looks like lengths of lath). Their plumbr on site says at one point they had only once acrow in place during the work. It looks like they have lateral movement meaning doors and windows above dont now open/close properly. It also looks like they had taken the cheapest and easiert option with the RSJ which will lead to an obstrusive boxed in beam across the room when they could have used a method which produces a less obstrusive beam.
Her patner finally managed to get the builder out yesterday evening who admits the workmen haven't supported the wall fully and assured them that they will fix it.
They have asked the builder to have the structural engineer on site on Monday to give a report on the potential damge and outline repairs.
What else should they be doing and if the builder does not move quickly and fix it all, what should they do?
She is already worried about unseen future problems and how she can protect about that.
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/jOpjIPup.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/hQE9SSsL" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/hQE9SSsL.jpg)
These are from the first cracks. The builders bodged some cement in some of the larger ones . The bullder has suggested bringing the same guys back on site to fix it (one assume sthey are sub-contractors) or that she will have to wait until his men become free. She has told him to pull men off other jobs to get this done but that they are not to do anything other than make safe until the engineer has been to site and told them what to do.
She walked around the building with her baby in a sling, which is pretty scarey as they have left loose masonary and unsupported walls.
The contracts manager is saying the directors are on holiday and he cannot do anything until the boss comes home on Friday. My daughter's partner has told them all the trades are of site until the engineers report says it is safe and that the delays will be at their costs.
Seems she had asked for the flat ceiling but the builders said it wasnt possible, but likely it was more work and messing about.
Seems she had asked for the flat ceiling but the builders said it wasnt possible, but likely it was more work and messing about.
She has 3 electricians and 5 plumbers on site who are having to be sent home unless they can work at the far end of the house in safety.
Should the Health and Safety Exec. be involved about the way they created this risk to others on the site. They have pictures of the acrows left, but the p;lumber says at one pointt they only had one acrow.
This is what they left:
This is what went on in the week:
Should the Health and Safety Exec. be involved about the way they created this risk to others on the site. They have pictures of the acrows left, but the p;lumber says at one pointt they only had one acrow.
This is what they left:
This is what went on in the week:
Edited by Cogcog on Sunday 23 July 09:34
They are not yet in the house, so no need to move out.
They are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
They are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
hairyben said:
How did they support the wall to get the acrows in place? How do they support the wall between removing acrows to get the beam in place? The support normally pierces the wall above where the beam is then is removed once the beam is secure and wall can rest on it. Not my area of expertise but it doesn't look right.
Get a 2nd opinion.
That is the question!Get a 2nd opinion.
hairyben said:
All the accreditation and schemes can sadly count for nothing very often
Are the plumbers/sparks yours or theirs? Its normally quite difficult to work in one part only without free reign.
The other trades are hers. The house is large (11 beds over 3 stories plus cellar wher the ;lumbers are installing the new boiler) with the main (stone) stairs well away from the problem areas.Are the plumbers/sparks yours or theirs? Its normally quite difficult to work in one part only without free reign.
I wasnt suggestung the accreditations had any sway unless it was by the threat of losing them. they have a H&E accrediation for example.
Morning, update after a long day yesterday.
Drove down overnight to meet the builder's contracts manager on site at 9am. We cancelled the 5 plumbers, 2 electricians and a carpenter who were due on site because of the risk of a collapse.
They admitted the faults completely, admitted using sub-contractors and that they did not visit the site to check on the work all week. There were unused acrow props lying in the room, a pile of boards for the acrows lying outside (unused) and precarious loose masonary everywhere.They had even taken sand and cement from the ground workers puting in edgings for the driveway having turned up without materials.
Their structural engineer came out at midday and told them what needed to be done to make the site safe. They had even failed to follow his spec on the pad-stones,They pinned the wall from above in the bedroom with sections of RSJ with acrows through the floors and are now removing the steel they had inserted as it was 18 inches too low ( they had told my daughter it couldnt be put up any higher, leaving her with a 2 foot step in her ceiling). Once pinned we can allow our trades in at the opposite end of the house as long a sthey do not work or pass through the kitchen/diner. Once the two steels are back in they are hacking the plaster off the walls on both floors above 600mm either side of all the cracks so that the engineer can see the damage and say what kind of stitching may be required. they are using some sort of special screws to fix the door and window frames in place and prevent movement.
We got our own engineer in during the evening, who has expert witness experience. He agreed with the builder's engineer except he wants the plaster off some old cracks adjacent to the new cracks which look like they have lengthened and widened.
Their engineer is now on holiday so we have insisted they pause once the plaster is off for our engineer to visit, inspect and specify the repairs, with a further pause before plastering for another engineer's visit to make sure it has been done as per spec.
Insult to injury, they had slid the steels through the window kitchen, caught the frame and broken the corner off the sash window frame, and dislodged the window from the frame.
The labourer turned up in the evening with his wife and kids in his new 4x4 asking if he could have his shovel and broom back. We suspect that he is the dim witted son of the big boss who is on holiday who is the one who quoting on the job and briefed the enginerer and the 2 labourers who made this mess. I am told the original sorry cre were driving the company van and the dim witted labourer was wearing their company sweat shirt, so I suspect he may not be a sub contractor. His shovel and broom are where the sun don't shine.
Our enginer has written a very strongly worded email about the risks associated with not supporting the wall (at one point the plumbers say they had just one acrow in place), pointed out the H&S implications and the potential for a manslaughter charge had it collapsed on someone.
They expect to be hacking off by the end of this week.
My daughter says he has no intention of paying his bill ( about £6,700 plus VAT). I suspect a better line may be to deduct all her costs of trades sitting around, the engineer's costs and the cost of her rent for a month because she cannot now move straight to the new house a splanned (she completes on the sale of her house at the start of September and this has put her back about 2 weeks) which won't leave much anyway but perhaps to pay the cost of the original engineer's drawings and the steels to appear reasonable should they take her to court (which I don';t think they would do as they are a well respected local company who would not want any attention drawn to this incident).
The boss gets back from holiday on Friday.
Drove down overnight to meet the builder's contracts manager on site at 9am. We cancelled the 5 plumbers, 2 electricians and a carpenter who were due on site because of the risk of a collapse.
They admitted the faults completely, admitted using sub-contractors and that they did not visit the site to check on the work all week. There were unused acrow props lying in the room, a pile of boards for the acrows lying outside (unused) and precarious loose masonary everywhere.They had even taken sand and cement from the ground workers puting in edgings for the driveway having turned up without materials.
Their structural engineer came out at midday and told them what needed to be done to make the site safe. They had even failed to follow his spec on the pad-stones,They pinned the wall from above in the bedroom with sections of RSJ with acrows through the floors and are now removing the steel they had inserted as it was 18 inches too low ( they had told my daughter it couldnt be put up any higher, leaving her with a 2 foot step in her ceiling). Once pinned we can allow our trades in at the opposite end of the house as long a sthey do not work or pass through the kitchen/diner. Once the two steels are back in they are hacking the plaster off the walls on both floors above 600mm either side of all the cracks so that the engineer can see the damage and say what kind of stitching may be required. they are using some sort of special screws to fix the door and window frames in place and prevent movement.
We got our own engineer in during the evening, who has expert witness experience. He agreed with the builder's engineer except he wants the plaster off some old cracks adjacent to the new cracks which look like they have lengthened and widened.
Their engineer is now on holiday so we have insisted they pause once the plaster is off for our engineer to visit, inspect and specify the repairs, with a further pause before plastering for another engineer's visit to make sure it has been done as per spec.
Insult to injury, they had slid the steels through the window kitchen, caught the frame and broken the corner off the sash window frame, and dislodged the window from the frame.
The labourer turned up in the evening with his wife and kids in his new 4x4 asking if he could have his shovel and broom back. We suspect that he is the dim witted son of the big boss who is on holiday who is the one who quoting on the job and briefed the enginerer and the 2 labourers who made this mess. I am told the original sorry cre were driving the company van and the dim witted labourer was wearing their company sweat shirt, so I suspect he may not be a sub contractor. His shovel and broom are where the sun don't shine.
Our enginer has written a very strongly worded email about the risks associated with not supporting the wall (at one point the plumbers say they had just one acrow in place), pointed out the H&S implications and the potential for a manslaughter charge had it collapsed on someone.
They expect to be hacking off by the end of this week.
My daughter says he has no intention of paying his bill ( about £6,700 plus VAT). I suspect a better line may be to deduct all her costs of trades sitting around, the engineer's costs and the cost of her rent for a month because she cannot now move straight to the new house a splanned (she completes on the sale of her house at the start of September and this has put her back about 2 weeks) which won't leave much anyway but perhaps to pay the cost of the original engineer's drawings and the steels to appear reasonable should they take her to court (which I don';t think they would do as they are a well respected local company who would not want any attention drawn to this incident).
The boss gets back from holiday on Friday.
dudleybloke said:
Those pics are frightening.
I'm amazed that anyone who has ever worked in the building trade could ever consider those supports as sufficient.
As others have stated, don't let them fob you off onto the subbies, the company you contracted has liability to you.
It might be worth checking the company details, debts etc online and also find out who they are insured by.
Unfortunately I think this could be a long hard fight to put right.
I'm amazed that anyone who has ever worked in the building trade could ever consider those supports as sufficient.
As others have stated, don't let them fob you off onto the subbies, the company you contracted has liability to you.
It might be worth checking the company details, debts etc online and also find out who they are insured by.
Unfortunately I think this could be a long hard fight to put right.
I got their accounts out, about £400k in cash at the end of 2016.
Update:
Independent engineer is largely agreeing with the builders engineer except he wants all of the cracks exposing to 600mm either side, including old ones which may have lengthened or widened after this incident. He alos noted that the acrowe props are still haphazzardly placed and properly installed. He pointed out that this was a disaster waiting to happen and that had there been a death then it is so poor done and so poorly managed that manslaughter charges may have followed.Between the engineers they have given specific instructions on the installation of the steels, including the dry-packing and the pad stones, and the way the needles and props must be removed.
An engineer is coming out Thursday night to look at the padstones (they had not installed the specified pad stones) steels and the dry packing before the props are removed.
The company boss was due on site Thursday but is now saying he won't be back from holiday. Lovely.
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones, the site wasn't made safe, unused acrowes were lying on site and they actually had the right boards outside, but didnt use them.).
Independent engineer is largely agreeing with the builders engineer except he wants all of the cracks exposing to 600mm either side, including old ones which may have lengthened or widened after this incident. He alos noted that the acrowe props are still haphazzardly placed and properly installed. He pointed out that this was a disaster waiting to happen and that had there been a death then it is so poor done and so poorly managed that manslaughter charges may have followed.Between the engineers they have given specific instructions on the installation of the steels, including the dry-packing and the pad stones, and the way the needles and props must be removed.
An engineer is coming out Thursday night to look at the padstones (they had not installed the specified pad stones) steels and the dry packing before the props are removed.
The company boss was due on site Thursday but is now saying he won't be back from holiday. Lovely.
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones, the site wasn't made safe, unused acrowes were lying on site and they actually had the right boards outside, but didnt use them.).
Edited by Cogcog on Wednesday 26th July 09:41
Mr Pointy said:
Where do Building Control come into this, if anywhere? The house owner is going to want all of this work signed off so she has the right documents should she sell in the future. Do BC have to approve the remedial works?
What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
We have been through that with the engineer. He says that if the repairs are carried out as instructed there wont be any issues.What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
andy43 said:
Give a boy a mans job... hope he can get that broom out...
If both SEs are happy (and are insurance backed) that it can all be resined and bolted back together to prevent future movement then it's very good news.
What I've seen done is each and every crack exposed, and all the mortar beds ground out by an inch and then filled with stainless threaded bar glued in with resin across each crack. Looked like a complete botch job but did seem to work. Anything even resembling a crack needs uncovering, outside as well if it's rendered. No idea what rest of house is like or how many cracked areas there are but full replastering could be an option rather than patch repairs to each room, even if you need to contribute a bit extra?
If doors and windows can be pulled back that's also positive provided you're happy everything will be as expected once done.
This is why tradesmen should never be left alone by themselves too long
Here's Fireman Sam now...just in the nick of time by the looks of it...
This is pretty much what the 2 engineers are saying. Expose it all, strap it and glue it all, replaster the lot. If both SEs are happy (and are insurance backed) that it can all be resined and bolted back together to prevent future movement then it's very good news.
What I've seen done is each and every crack exposed, and all the mortar beds ground out by an inch and then filled with stainless threaded bar glued in with resin across each crack. Looked like a complete botch job but did seem to work. Anything even resembling a crack needs uncovering, outside as well if it's rendered. No idea what rest of house is like or how many cracked areas there are but full replastering could be an option rather than patch repairs to each room, even if you need to contribute a bit extra?
If doors and windows can be pulled back that's also positive provided you're happy everything will be as expected once done.
This is why tradesmen should never be left alone by themselves too long
Here's Fireman Sam now...just in the nick of time by the looks of it...
Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06
Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06
There one window on the groundfloor which has moved noticeably, but it looks like it is due to them passing the steel through it and draging it on the cill becaus ethey only had 2 men on site, pulling the old frame with it and popping the sealant, which then fell out. They also damaged the window frame and cill doping that. The plumber said he heard them complaining they need more men to lift the steel abd roped in their delivery driver to help.
Boss is staying on the beach. They say it was a clerical error that he was booked in for Thursday, he is away until the weekend.
Today they have been trying to press on, finish the steels and get her to look at the stitching bars they have in mind. She has just emailed them telling them that they must stop work once the steels aresdry-filled for the engineer to inspect. Then and only then can they take out the needes and props. She then wants them to stop again once the plaster is off for the engineer to say what needs to be done, and again after the repairs are made for the engineer to inspect before they replaster.
They have their 'best man' supervising on site but today are using two new sub contractors under his direction. The 'best man' is the uncle of the shovel boy and brother of the sun lounging boss I hear.
Today they have been trying to press on, finish the steels and get her to look at the stitching bars they have in mind. She has just emailed them telling them that they must stop work once the steels aresdry-filled for the engineer to inspect. Then and only then can they take out the needes and props. She then wants them to stop again once the plaster is off for the engineer to say what needs to be done, and again after the repairs are made for the engineer to inspect before they replaster.
They have their 'best man' supervising on site but today are using two new sub contractors under his direction. The 'best man' is the uncle of the shovel boy and brother of the sun lounging boss I hear.
I am thinking I am travelling down to sit on them all day foir the key bits and meetings. My daughter's is at work all day and her partner has their 6 month old baby, and lives some miles away so they can only pop in in the evning and between feeds/sleeps.
I have 2 weeks holiday...I know where I may be spending it.
I have 2 weeks holiday...I know where I may be spending it.
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