Correct course of action for failed electrical work.

[Garybee]

A little bit of background for context...

I have some electrical work that's been required in my house/garage/workshop for the last few months. Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted (price seemed good and nice guy so agreed straight away) and turned up to start the job (quoted to be 1 full days work).

The first day he turned up a couple of hours late, after about 4 hours had to go to the wholesalers to pick up bits he'd forgot and called to ask if he could complete the next day (I agreed, I'd left time the next day for this kind of thing).

The second day he turned up about an hour late and left just after midday but arranged to come back on the Saturday to finish.

Saturday he never turned up, no contact and no response to text.

What has been done is generally ok but with some ridiculous errors. For example, most of the cable runs are through the roof joists (flat garage roof with massive joists) but then when things are stored between the beams (eg ladders, timber) the cables are just laying on top of them. The layout of the system is also clearly wrong with some of the sockets on a ring then one on a spur with a spur taken from it to go underground to a nearby workshop.

Given the months it has taken to find an electrician I was intending to let him finish, pay him then fix all the errors after he'd left. It now looks like he may have taken on work beyond his abilities and now has his head in the sand. It's a real shame as he seems like a nice lad so I was hoping I'd found an electrician I could trust.

I'm considering at this point calling his approved body (NICELC) to get them to come and look as some of what he has done is so poor. I'm also considering giving up on trying to find an electrician and just doing it myself. Which is frustrating as I was trying to do this all correctly and as it includes a couple of consumer units/shower circuit and underground cable I know I shouldn't but when the qualified electricians are this bad...

The saving grace is that I haven't paid him anything yet and to his credit he hasn't asked me for any money either. What would others do in this situation?

Edited by Garybee on Sunday 25th February 11:17

[Garybee]

I know how to do most of it (and could research/work out the rest) but I was ideally hoping to get a cert for the work. I don't envisage selling the house any time soon (maybe ever) but am reluctant to cause potential problems for the future.

Your description of the NICEIC doesn't instil me with confidence

[Garybee]

I knew I'd be at fault when I posted this

[Garybee]

Alucidnation said:

Buy cheap, buy twice.


We are due to rip out a 'multiskilled' tradesmans work this week due to knowing fk all about nothing, but being 'reasonably priced'.

And, it's costing them more than our original quotation.

I love stuff like this, as I earn a fking fortune from it.

You have no idea what the quote was but you know that I didn't pay enough

I'm sure if I paid him double what he asked for he would have turned out to be the perfect tradesman. He definitely wouldn't have just done the same job for double the money.

[Garybee]

fido said:

Is he likely to return? I'd take photos etc. of incomplete or shoddy workmanship, and that you aren't happy with the work done so far, just to cover yourself and take it from there. Get someone with recommendations next time.

I will be doing exactly that and will give NICEIC the opportunity to inspect it before I fix it all of course. I'd love to get someone with recommendations but I'm starting to think they don't exist. I know of a couple of local electricians that have done work for friends/colleagues but those friends/colleagues were very unimpressed at what they were left with. Instead I thought I'd try someone with recommendations on check-a-trade and Mybuilder. Obviously that hasn't worked but what else can you do?

[Garybee]

mickmcpaddy said:

I must admit, every job I turn up at to do extra work or a re-wire the original electrics are usually horrific, half the time the wiring is pretty new as well, mostly carried out by kitchen or bathroom fitter types.

As for the NICEIC I will be utterly amazed if you get them to do anything, the £500 per year they get of the "electrician" is far more important to them than your safety. They did give kitchen and bathroom fitters scope to sign work off after all.

This guy does trade as an electrician. If it comes to that I will try talking to the NICEIC but I will also prepare myself to get nowhere with them.

mickmcpaddy said:

If they need to use one of those type of sites then they can't be very good. I've got the same problem trying to buy a graphics card, just cant get hold of one in the near future.

Unfortunately that seems to be the only kind of tradesman available round here.

For clarity I'm no cheapskate. I very much value people's time being a technical trade myself. My main concern about this country is the national trait of undervaluing skilled people.

I have managed to get hold of him this afternoon and agreed another day for him to complete the job(s). If I'm able to get him to turn up, complete the job (however badly) and provide the appropriate certs I'll be happy. Once I'm legal I can make everything safe after he's gone.

Amusingly his lack of efficiency with circuit design provides plenty of spare cable for me to make everything right and actually increase the current capacity of what's there.

[Garybee]

Alucidnation said:

What has circuit design got to do with spare cable?

And to be honest, it sounds like you were probably interfering.

1) Lots, a long spur to a socket nearby to a socket on a ring is very easy to improve on.

2) Feel free to explain how looking at what's been done after he left has made him feel like I'm interfering. Honestly, this place just gets worse and worse.

[Garybee]

I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-

a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side

bmwmike said:

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

I discussed what my requirements were with him beforehand (types of equipment/electrical load/position of light switches etc.) but how that was achieved was left entirely up to him. I was also very clear with him beforehand that he should, if in doubt, put in a bigger cable and I'm happy to pay the extra. I even worded it in such a way as he could bump his price up a bit later to keep the deal sweet.

Edited by Garybee on Sunday 25th February 19:45

[Garybee]

Jambo85 said:

Reading through the thread I was thinking to myself that there's nothing wrong with running cables through joists surely, hard to avoid sometimes, but bloody hell that is rough!

My latest disappointment was a plumber fitting a new radiator - had to cut the floor which was fine but apparently doesn't carry screws/nails so fastened it back down by using the original screws down the middle of the cut attempting to secure both sides...!

I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm well aware that there is best practice and there is acceptable practice. Obviously It'll not be left like that long term but how it gets sorted and what I subsequently do about the work he's carried out depends entirely on his attitude when (or if) he returns.

If he just fixed the errors without me mentioning it (there's no way he thinks that it's correct so it's possible he could decide to just sort it) I genuinely would pay him more than the agreed fee. He is a nice lad and I do think that people should be paid fairly for a job well done.

That sounds like a cringeworthy bodge with the floorboard. It's tricky with issues like this, you've got to tread a fine line between keeping people on side and letting them get away with doing a crappy job. Nowadays I've settled on just doing everything myself unless it's obviously very illegal. I'm leaning towards doing that stuff too though as I'd rather have illegal/safe over legal/unsafe.

[Garybee]

mickmcpaddy said:

Are you sure those ladders were there when he wired the place? Maybe he had no idea, then you put the ladders back and it looks like his fault.

Why are you so desperate for me to be the problem?

Yes, I am sure the ladders were there as I haven't used them for at least 18 months. But as you're obviously accusing me of being a liar you won't accept this. In which case why do you ask the question? some of the comments from the tradesmen in this thread are comical, so convinced the customer has to be in the wrong in some way. You're the first to accuse me of being underhanded though so I suppose I can at least give you credit for being original.

What would I possibly have to gain by doing that?

[Garybee]

David-mthtml said:

To add a different slant on this (don’t agree with current quality of work however) they’ll always be that one Customer that’ll complain they can no longer store the ladders there if the Electrican had moved the ladders and gone straight across.

If I was an electrician and my intended routing for cables was through an area that the customer obviously used for storage (and in this case was currently using for storage) I would either amend my cable routing or say to the customer "can these ladders go anywhere else, there's no other way for me to run this cable". The (extremely obvious) solution here would have been to run the cables along the end wall of the garage.

To be clear, I had spoken to the guy at the start of the job and told him to give me a shout if he had any problems or needed me to make a decision.

[Garybee]

mickmcpaddy said:

If those ladders were a fixed piece of wood like another joist for eg then there would be no problem with the cables being diverted slightly upwards to get round it like they are doing. But those ladders will be slid in and out and I know how awkward it can be to get a heavy metal ladder back in position.

If it was my job I would picture the following scenario in my head - home owner goes back in garage with ladders, tries to slide them back in position whilst stood in a puddle of water after jet washing the gutters, the ladders snag on a cable and rip into it catching the live and electrocuting the householder. Just for this reason I would never contemplate doing the above, so if my job ended up with cables over the ladder like that then the only possible scenario would be there were no ladders there to start with. The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.

I'm be fine with them taking a less than direct route. I'm not an unreasonable guy and as I said earlier I'm well aware that there is often 'the ideal way' and 'the acceptable way'. This job however was neither. I will post pictures of some of the other aspects of the work that are wrong, this was just the most ridiculous one that I didn't think anyone would argue about. Obviously I underestimated pistonheads here .

I'm not in any way accusing all electricians of being like this. I don't believe I have suggested that at any point in this thread.

[Garybee]

Rick101 said:

mickmcpaddy said:

Rick101 said:

mickmcpaddy said:

Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that.

mickmcpaddy said:

The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.

Getting warmer...

I agree, but if thats the case, how do they stay in work.

Garybee said:

A little bit of background for context...
Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted

Client desperation. Simply finding someone that can be arsed to turn up, even 2 hours late.

I'm just waiting for someone to post it must be the clients fault as he must be awkward and demanding

Actually that has already happened (and more).

At this point I'll be fairly satisfied if he returns to complete the job and provides the certificates. When he's gone I'll then be able to fix all the mistakes and make it how it should be. It's frustrating because you shouldn't have to think this way but what else can you realistically do?

[Garybee]

Roman Rhodes said:

Just to add a different slant on NICEIC.

When we built our house the main contractor used a largish electrical contractor based in London. The exterior lights were an issue almost from day 1 with tripping, armoured cables surfacing through soil, poor connections etc. Contractor attended many times to do remedial work with limited success (lots of attempts at blaming wrong 'drivers' etc. - but didn't want to grasp the nettle and agree that some of the self-employed guys they used were useless and lazy and that more fundamental work was required). Main contractor no help (another story).

After 5 years! we contacted NICEIC. Provided them with original sign off documents and copies of correspondence to electrical contractor giving them the opportunity to rectify and their response. At this point the outfit was on the brink of folding. NICEIC inspected and appointed a good local contractor to rectify. We took the opportunity to upgrade some lights etc. and now all is good. I also learned that wrapping a buried cable joint in a Tesco carrier bag is not an approved method of waterproofing. Who knew?

That is good to hear, I may well have a decision to make at some point then. I still haven't fully decided what I'm going to do about it.

If the guy simply messes me about and fails to return then I'll definitely contact the NICEIC and leave bad reviews wherever I can.

If he returns, fixes all the crappy work and provides certificates then I'll update this thread to say how wrong I was and be a very happy customer. I'll probably also take some pictures of the airborne pigs as they pass my house too. I am prepared for this eventuality though just in case it happens.

The awkward scenario is him returning and completing the work to the same incorrect/shoddy standard that he has so far worked to but providing certificates to say it's correctly installed. I could then fix it after he's gone and I'm legal and safe. But what about the next customer?

In the case of the NICEIC appointing another local contractor to fix the work who foots the bill? I'm assuming that this would end up being me again but It's not something I've dealt with before so interested to know what should happen here.

[Garybee]

Contract Killer said:

Garybee said:

In the case of the NICEIC appointing another local contractor to fix the work who foots the bill? I'm assuming that this would end up being me again but It's not something I've dealt with before so interested to know what should happen here.

That would be the Niceic 7 year guarantee.
The niceic pays for the rectification costs.

However im pretty sure he will need to have finished the work, signed it off and you paying him for this to apply. And the electrician will need to be a member of the niceic.

Well colour me surprised! Thanks for the info', that was not what I expected.

[Garybee]

Alucidnation said:

Can someone explain what is against the regs and is unsafe with the installation?

This does strongly suggest that you think this is an acceptable way to leave a job.




It's quite amusing to have two, presumably qualified, electricians looking at the same picture. One saying:-

mickmcpaddy said:

The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.

and the other saying:-

Alucidnation said:

Can someone explain what is against the regs and is unsafe with the installation?

Edited by Garybee on Tuesday 27th February 20:42

[Garybee]

Well...I thought I would do an update as I left this hanging.

To the guy's credit he did return to finish the job. There were some comedy errors made though, including one that beats the 'wires draped over the ladder' pictured earlier.

I fitted an electric roller door to my workshop a few months ago which has been waiting for electric to be run to the building. I hadn't mentioned the door to the electrician as I was planning to do this bit myself. When I had a quick check to see how he was getting on I noticed that he had mounted a 'fused spur' box and wired the garage door motor directly to it . I thanked him for doing the extra work (balanced out only having 1/3 of the sockets we'd agreed) but mentioned that it wouldn't work at which point he revealed that he'd only connected 3 of the motor wires as he didn't know what to do with the 4th. Glad I saw he'd done this before everything got switched on.

When he'd finished he thanked me and said he hoped I'd consider him in the future for and further work. I was feeling a little sorry for him at this point so I just thanked him and asked him to send through the certificates with the invoice. All nice and friendly, no hint of any grief.

36 hours later I got the following text:-

"Please can you call - to discuss non payment of the amount £xxx to Mr xxxxxx. Reminders have been sent, a voicemail and call - now MSM. Failure to make payment can result in fees and further action. To resolve immediately, pay full amount. Alternatively payment plan can be arranged with added fees dependant on period of time."

At this point I hadn't even had an invoice. Obviously I was less than impressed by this so I called up (the number turned out to be his wife's who would appear to do the admin etc.) and had a fairly stern word. This prompted an extremely apologetic text and a load of waffle about another customer with a very similar name.

All through the job the guy had had a really good attitude but had kept dropping comments about recently letting an employee go, recently expanding etc etc. Basically lots of excuses about why the job had dragged out so long. He'd obviously recently started out but didn't want me to know that. It was a shame because I have no issues with employing someone new to the game. If anything they're more likely to still be doing things correctly. I'd take that over a tradesman who 'knows everything', is massively arrogant, has fallen into crappy practices years ago and will sulk and stomp off when you pick him up on the crappy job he's just done. This description fits the vast majority of tradesmen that I've come across (not saying there isn't a good one somewhere though).

Anyway, I now have certificates to say it's safe so can spend a couple of evenings making it right. I think that is probably going to be the last time I bother to employ a tradesman though (until I'm too old to DIY everything). It's just so much harder than doing it yourself.

I feel a bit sorry for this lad. He's obviously just starting out and is struggling. His wife is then flapping and trying to speed up payments the wrong way. I can't see his business lasting long sadly, which is a shame because he was actually far better to deal with than most.