Informal Planning Advice prior to Complaint?

[youngsyr]

Hi all,

Our lovely neighbours (other half of a semi detached) have decided to put up a "small seating area" which has miraculously turned into a 6m x 6m decking area which borders our fence line.

So far, no problem. However, our houses slope drastically front to back to the extent that the ground level at the rear wall of the houses is about 4ft below the front ground level and by the time you're 5m from the back wall of our houses, you are an entire floor below the front ground level.

Now, a previous owner of next door extended at the rear projecting into the rear garden by 5m, so the drop from their now extended back door to ground level is about 7ft.

So finally we come to the crux of the problem, our wonderful neighbours have installed the above decking area going straight out of their rear extension at the front ground floor level height. The result is that the decking literally sits above our (6ft) fence line and they now have a large, unobstructed viewing platform into half of our garden.

I've discussed our issues with the neighbours on several ocassions, have been promised various compromises in return, all of which seem to have been ignored. So, it seems there's only one avenue left to me.

The planning rules on decking seem clear as I understand them: a deck that doesn't protrude any more than 300mm above ground level or detract from a neighbour's privacy is a permitted development, anything else requires permission. A significant barrier to permission being granted is the invasion of a neighbour's privacy.

This deck would appear to break both criteria (assuming the ground level isn't taken from the front of the house) and there has been no planning application.

On top of the above, there is currently no fence/balustrade around their platform, which gives them an unguarded 6ft drop from the edge into our garden and the rest of their garden - I believe this contravenes building control regulations.

However, it seems that you can't make a complaint to the planning department anonymously, so if I complain, the neighbours are going to know it's me. I don't have a problem with that on the face of it, but it would seem pointless to do it without ensuring that my complaint has a good chance of being upheld before I "press the nuclear button" with the neighbours.

So, can anyone tell me if and how I can get some planning advice, prior to taking it any further?

[youngsyr]

Hub said:

You are right that it needs permission, and if it is how you describe then they are unlikely to get it.

Would adding a privacy screen to the side overcome concerns or will it still be intrusive due to the height?

Enforcement complaints are actually anonymous - though I suppose it wouldn't take a genius to work out who has complained!

Thanks for the advice. My main concern is what the planning officer will take as ground level as it's not particularly clear whether it will be the level at the front wall, original back wall, extended back wall, or something else?

Also, I didn't think a complaint could be made without a name being put against it? I thought I read that on one of the planning department websites. Could you shed any light on how an anonymous complaint would be made?

Re the possibility of a screen, they promised to put up a 3 ft fence on our side of their deck a month ago, which is a considerable compromise for us as it means we would then have a 10ft fence for 6m of our garden, but they've failed to even do that.

Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 19th July 22:30

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

Might be worth reading this thread. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Thanks for the link! Bit of a mixed bag reading it - our situation is much more clear cut than the one that started that thread (our neighbour's deck is higher, larger and closer to our boundary) and which seemed to have breached planning, but others in that thread have stated that ground level in their cases was taken from the highest adjacent point, which brings in subjectivity and is my main concern.

What I'm looking for is at what point the ground level will be taken. If it's the front of the house, then the deck is at "ground level", if it's the rearmost part of the decking, then it's at least 6ft above the current ground level (which I believe has been raised to level both ours and next door's gardens) and possibly as much as 8 ft above the original ground level!

[youngsyr]

snake_oil said:

If it's above the fence line overlooking your garden, frankly it sounds like an open and shut case. Got any pics?

Well, that's what I would hope, but putting in a planning complaint against our neighbour is probably going to mean that we take an already bitter relationship and make it permanent. As we have no intention of moving, this is not ideal.

However, after them being very deceiftul about exactly what work they were having done, I've discussed the deck once it was up with them several times and they won't budge - they feel that a large platform with unobscured views into our entire garden is within their rights as property owners and we're being selfish by pointing out that it removes all privacy from our garden. And in any case "it's up now" so I should get over it.

It wouldn't be so bad, but they entertain on it frequently- last night I went out to water the garden only be stared at by about 8 strangers they were hosting for a dinner party on their deck.

I'm a bit reluctant to post pics, but I can assure you, the level of the deck protrudes about 1" above the fence line, which it borders. It's so high above the ground level that there is a 3/4 high storage cupboard underneath it in which they store their lawnmower, rakes, etc.

The only aspect that I feel weakens the case is the sloping ground level. I'm still not clear what this actually is, given the extension and works done to both our houses over the years (the houses are 80 years old).

[youngsyr]

Hub said:

youngsyr said:

Also, I didn't think a complaint could be made without a name being put against it? I thought I read that on one of the planning department websites. Could you shed any light on how an anonymous complaint would be made?

If you are objecting to a planning application then that is the case, but f you are notifying the Council's Planning Enforcement team of a planning breach then that is anonymous.

The ground level wouldn't be taken from the front, it would be the highest natural point at the rear I think.

Thanks - I've found the complaint form on our local planning portal and it does require a name, address and email address for the complainer, but those details should be kept anonymous from the alleged breacher. Of course it's going to be very obvious who has complained, regardless.

Is it possible to get independent planning advice from a surveyor etc? I would like to get some comfort for our specific situation that there is a solid case for a breach, as once that complaint goes in, our relationship with out neighbours will be irreparably damaged. I want to make sure we don't take that step without an excellent chance of having the deck taken down.

[youngsyr]

dmsims said:

You have multiple grounds to report them to planning

You can also also report them to BC since a deck that high need a 1.2m balustrade

This opens up another discussion - if the ground level is taken as the level at the rear of the deck, then the deck is at least 6ft above ground level. If BC then require a 1.2m balustrade as you suggest (and that agrees to what I've read), then the total height of the deck (inc. balustrade) is 10 ft, which I believe would require planning in its own right, even if it weren't for the floor heigh of the deck and the privacy issue.

Obviously I don't particularly want a 10ft high fence along 6m of my garden, so the only solution which doesn't either remove our privacy or our light is to lower the deck. This obviously won't go down well with the neighbours.

Frankly, I'm amazed the builders went along with it, but then again I'm amazed anyone can think that such a structure is reasonable either, so what do I know?!

[youngsyr]

desolate said:

When someone reported us for alleged planning breach the Cheshire East enforcement people responded as if it was a blue light emergency.

I'd just ring them up.

I checked our planning portals procedures - they state that filling in the web form is the fastest way to lodge a complaint and any phone calls or letters will just wait to be transcribed into the web form.

They also state that anonymous complaints are unlikely to be investigated, but they will keep the complainer's details confidential. I guess it doesn't make much difference, it will be obvious that it's us that has complained. I just want to make sure that the complaint will be upheld before I make it.

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

youngsyr said:

Is it possible to get independent planning advice from a surveyor etc?

Yes, lots of independent planning consultants about, one of those would likely be better than a surveyor. Try googling for your local area.

Thanks, just called a local one. He's out for lunch, but I'll have a chat and see if he can visit for a reasonable amount of money and give us a professional verdict.

[youngsyr]

Bullet-Proof_Biscuit said:

It would appear your neighbour is a selfish arrogant c**t therefore you are merely responding appropriately.

'They ignored me more than once' summed it up for me imho.

I would hire the biggest camera I could and blatantly photograph them and their mates, just before reporting to the authorities as above, and wait for the music.

As tempting as it may be, I'd prefer to be as reasonable as possible about it. At least if it's clear they've breached planning then they can't just argue that it's me being a NIMBY neighbour.

[youngsyr]

bobtail4x4 said:

dickymint said:

Judging by OP’s description of this “deck” i’d Say that building regs would not only require a balustrade but also require structural calculations for it?

a deck is exempt B Regs normally

When does a deck stop being a deck though? This one has breeze block supporting courses below it several feet high.

[youngsyr]

dickymint said:

JQ said:

youngsyr said:

Thanks, just called a local one. He's out for lunch, but I'll have a chat and see if he can visit for a reasonable amount of money and give us a professional verdict.

Yep, just get an hourly rate or fixed fee agreed on the basis that it's just advice and you don't actually require them to do anything. They may be happy to do it from the comfort of their office with a few good quality photos and measurements from you.

I wouldn’t spend a penny on that - just dob him in. Planning will pop round to see it and you discretely without your neighbour even knowing.

Edited by dickymint on Friday 20th July 14:00

How would they be able to inspect the deck without getting access to the neighbour's garden?

[youngsyr]

So, a couple of pictures to help visualise (nb: that travesty of a fence was put in at the same time, replacing a much nicer one that we'd put in for the previous neighbour which was also 1 ft higher with 1 ft less of concrete barge board):

Edited by youngsyr on Monday 23 July 09:07

[youngsyr]

desolate said:

youngsyr said:

So, a couple of pictures to help visualise:

Seriously - just ring planning enforcement.

If they decide not to enforce then pay for some advice.

If nothing else it looks a bit dangerous.

Tried the planning consultant again, he's out on site apparently, so have dropped him a note with those pictures.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is dangerous - especially considering they have an 18 month old child, but then again I've given up trying to understand their thoughts, because they seem to be the opposite of mine on a lot of issues.

[youngsyr]

KAgantua said:

no pics?

Can you not see them? They're working fine on my laptop.

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

WOW. The height of the BBQ demonstrates how intrusive that must be. It's like they're standing on top of your fence.

That would annoy the crap out of me.

Glad it's not just me then. In discussions with the neighbours I've been told that I'm being "immature" in thinking that our neighbours shouldn't be allowed to build whatever they like in their garden.

When I asked if they'd checked with planning, it seemed like the thought had never occurred to them. Their view seems to be that "it's just a deck, all our neigbours have them, what's the big deal?".

They seem oblivious to the fact that whilst their neighbours (including us) do indeed have decks, they're not elevated 6 ft in the air and don't extend halfway down the garden!

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 20th July 16:42

[youngsyr]

To be fair, we're on the side of a hill (hence the slope) and the rear gardens face out over London, giving you a panoramic view of the London skyline 20 miles away, which is pretty impressive, once you're high enough to see over the fences.

Obviously the reason they now have that unobstructed view from their deck is because they've elevated the deck above the fenceline, meaning they also have an unobstructed view into everyone's gardens.

[youngsyr]

Munter said:

Evil thought: You could leave a bowl of sweets on a pole, at the same height as the deck, but just too far away for the toddler to reach....
(I've no idea why people say I shouldn't have children. Really. I'm lovely. It's just the thoughts that are evil.)

You've clearly never looked after a toddler - they don't need any bait, they're danger seeking missiles by nature!

We have wooden steps down from the front ground level to the back ground level, a difference of about 8 feet. I once caught my toddler lining up his ride on fire engine to ride down them!

The neighbour's deck would terrify me with a toddler around, but as above, I've given up trying to fathom what goes on in their minds.

[youngsyr]

Minor update from the OP:

Since I originally posted the thread, the wife and I have been umming and arrghing about whether to shop the neighbours and make our already strained relationship really ugly. However, we noticed (couldn't really miss it!) a local estate agents car on their drive yesterday for an hour or so and again this morning, with the garden being really tidied up and their cars being moved off the drive in between - classic staging for photos behaviour.

We've learned from previous conversations that the neighbours are serial developers - they renovated their last place and sold up pretty quickly to move next door and it now looks like they're repeating the process.
This explains some of their decisions (no safety rail around the decking with them having a toddler, etc).

In any case, it looks like the decision has been made very easy for us - it's bad enough erecting that monstrosity for their own use, but as they're only doing it for profit there is no relationship to protect and we'll be shopping them shortly.

Watch this space...

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

Once the advert is up, you may wish to drop an email to the Estate Agent stating that you are in dispute with their client over the decking and they should be making any potential purchasers aware.

I'd also make you neighbours aware, preferably in writing, that you are making a complaint to the local planning dept.

The above should create a few issues for them which may force them to resolve before they can sell.

The email to the estate agent is a good call, thanks! However, I'm in two minds whether to notify the neighbours directly.

Firstly, they've shown next to no consideration to us, so I feel no obligation to be respectful/decent to them.

Secondly, they'll find out soon enough anyway from the planning department (assuming they don't dismiss our complaint outright) and it will be blindingly obvious who has complained, even if the planning department don['t let slip (which I understand they are not allowed to do).

Finally, I'm slightly concerned about the fall out from the complaint. It's obviously going to cost the neighbours a considerable sum (I'd expect in the low single digit thousands) and perhaps it's my paranoia, but the thought of petty revenge by damage to our property/cars rears its ugly head.

So, essentially, we gain nothing by telling them.

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 22 August 14:36

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

youngsyr said:

JQ said:

Once the advert is up, you may wish to drop an email to the Estate Agent stating that you are in dispute with their client over the decking and they should be making any potential purchasers aware.

I'd also make you neighbours aware, preferably in writing, that you are making a complaint to the local planning dept.

The above should create a few issues for them which may force them to resolve before they can sell.

The email to the estate agent is a good call, thanks! However, I'm in two minds whether to notify the neighbours directly.

Firstly, they've shown next to no consideration to us, so I feel no obligation to be respectful/decent to them.

Secondly, they'll find out soon enough anyway from the planning department (assuming they don't dismiss our complaint outright) and it will be blindingly obvious who has complained, even if the planning department don['t let slip (which I understand they are not allowed to do).

Finally, I'm slightly concerned about the fall out from the complaint. It's obviously going to cost the neighbours a considerable sum (I'd expect in the low single digit thousands) and perhaps it's my paranoia, but the thought of petty revenge by damage to our property/cars rears its ugly head.

So, essentially, we gain nothing by telling them.

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 22 August 14:36

You need to inform the neighbour, as they need to be aware that you are in dispute with them and that you will be putting in a complaint about the decking to the planning dept. They are under a legal obligation to disclose any neighbourly disputes to the purchaser, by not informing them of the dispute you will be playing into their hands. They can't disclose something they don't know anything about.

This is your leverage, and I suspect you will be get a far swifter resolution to this issue by potentially putting off purchasers than you will going through with a planning complaint. Your neighbours may have their house sold before the case even gets assigned to a Planning Officer.

As for vandalism, if they've got an ounce of intelligence they wouldn't want any police involvement when trying to sell a house - again they would be under an obligation to disclose this to any potential purchaser.

Them selling the house has put you in a far stronger position to get this sorted, but you need to directly involve the neighbour to be able to use it as leverage. I'd also be telling all the other neighbours that you're in dispute with them so that there are witnesses, thereby applying further pressure to the idiot neighbour as they will realise they can't just ignore it.

That's a very good point and thanks for taking the time to explain it.

I'll have a think about the best way to notify them.

The local planning department guidelines are 20 working days to investigate a non-urgent complaint, so it's going to be at least a month before anything further happens from their side.

We submitted a formal complaint with pictures yesterday.