Discussion
Spent the last two weeks sniffing over an expensive but potentially excellent single family residential development opportunity (aka very large house) being sold by an educational institution privately known to be in need of cash.
I engaged in some slowplay, offering substantially under the guide (0.94 to start with, increasing to 0.96). The property is unmortgageable as is and needs the best part of half a mill spending on it to do it a proper job. The money for this is in hand.
It may help to know that I am not a developer but looking to create my perfect family home for 20 years plus, Brexit, Corbyn and Trump be damned.
Unfortunately some other moneybags has just toddled up and offered full asking on first viewing.
Having got over the disappointment (when the phone rang I thought the agent might be calling me to tell me 0.96x had been accepted) I see we're now in a different game altogether. Previously I was testing the school's desperation and now I'm in a fight. Hey ho.
I don't need to do anything before Monday morning but I am tempted to forego piddling around with babysteps at 1.02 and 1.04, and just blast in at 1.06 or 1.07x the guide price, which is where I would probably max out. There's a key number around the point at which the total transaction cost just to buy the building get to 7 figures. I don't want to be the party trying to decide whether or not to hurdle that barrier.
Some advice I have received says to hold fire, to see if the new cash bidder is kosher and then try to gazump later on, but there won't be much time between offer being accepted and exchange most likely.
I'm also aware that I am quite emotional and not very calm but after a year or more of looking we're very eager to get rolling on something for the future.
Would you go for the Big Swing here or keep going on tip-toes waiting for BAFO or sealed bids?
I engaged in some slowplay, offering substantially under the guide (0.94 to start with, increasing to 0.96). The property is unmortgageable as is and needs the best part of half a mill spending on it to do it a proper job. The money for this is in hand.
It may help to know that I am not a developer but looking to create my perfect family home for 20 years plus, Brexit, Corbyn and Trump be damned.
Unfortunately some other moneybags has just toddled up and offered full asking on first viewing.
Having got over the disappointment (when the phone rang I thought the agent might be calling me to tell me 0.96x had been accepted) I see we're now in a different game altogether. Previously I was testing the school's desperation and now I'm in a fight. Hey ho.
I don't need to do anything before Monday morning but I am tempted to forego piddling around with babysteps at 1.02 and 1.04, and just blast in at 1.06 or 1.07x the guide price, which is where I would probably max out. There's a key number around the point at which the total transaction cost just to buy the building get to 7 figures. I don't want to be the party trying to decide whether or not to hurdle that barrier.
Some advice I have received says to hold fire, to see if the new cash bidder is kosher and then try to gazump later on, but there won't be much time between offer being accepted and exchange most likely.
I'm also aware that I am quite emotional and not very calm but after a year or more of looking we're very eager to get rolling on something for the future.
Would you go for the Big Swing here or keep going on tip-toes waiting for BAFO or sealed bids?
Thanks. I used to make money trying to be disciplined and acutely price-sensitive in situations where others lost their head but it's just so difficult in property. I had the collywobbles earlier in the week going up from 0.94 to 0.96 because the house needs so much work and I'm only interested in doing it to a high standard - no Sarah Beeny white-on-bland finishes and cost-cutting bathrooms, but now the adrenaline and aggressiveness of competition kicks in.
There will be other houses (we missed out on something in March and that felt like the end of the world) and the world might go to Hell in a handcart soon enough anyway, but I suppose we'll never come out on top without going a bit mad.
There will be other houses (we missed out on something in March and that felt like the end of the world) and the world might go to Hell in a handcart soon enough anyway, but I suppose we'll never come out on top without going a bit mad.
Thanks to everyone's insight.
I'm fortunate to have parents-in-law who have spent 20+ years doing renovations and barn conversions and a stepfather who was a chartered surveyor and commercial property developer and who also renovated a Grade II manor house from a pretty tired state. That means I'm under no illusions as to the cost, time and trouble involved in taking on this project.
Direct comparables aren't easy but there is one other private residence locally which was refurbed from a similar or worse condition 10 years ago, and recently sold (after 2+ years on the market at a very ambitious asking price) for 1.65x the asking price of my target.
I am on good terms with the agent who sold that and know that buyers were a bit disappointed by the quality and specification of the finishes used, in what should be a very strong period property. I also sensed from the architect who was involved in the project that the total spend on renovation was around half a million, though he had to spend more on the roof and a new staircase.
After discussion with the Mrs, breaking open the piggy banks and so on we are going to make what poker players call a "continuation bet", just to tide things along before revealing our true strength. 1.02 plus perhaps a promise to pay 2 years school fees upfront for our first child who would start in September 2019, with another to follow. I will also offer an attended exchange as soon as practicable.
This way if the rivals do turn out to be dreamers they can be found out. If not then we'll still have our knockout raise in reserve, rather than simply throwing money everywhere at the first sign of trouble. I'll try and take the agent's temperature before saying much more.
Quite a fun Monday in prospect.
I'm fortunate to have parents-in-law who have spent 20+ years doing renovations and barn conversions and a stepfather who was a chartered surveyor and commercial property developer and who also renovated a Grade II manor house from a pretty tired state. That means I'm under no illusions as to the cost, time and trouble involved in taking on this project.
Direct comparables aren't easy but there is one other private residence locally which was refurbed from a similar or worse condition 10 years ago, and recently sold (after 2+ years on the market at a very ambitious asking price) for 1.65x the asking price of my target.
I am on good terms with the agent who sold that and know that buyers were a bit disappointed by the quality and specification of the finishes used, in what should be a very strong period property. I also sensed from the architect who was involved in the project that the total spend on renovation was around half a million, though he had to spend more on the roof and a new staircase.
After discussion with the Mrs, breaking open the piggy banks and so on we are going to make what poker players call a "continuation bet", just to tide things along before revealing our true strength. 1.02 plus perhaps a promise to pay 2 years school fees upfront for our first child who would start in September 2019, with another to follow. I will also offer an attended exchange as soon as practicable.
This way if the rivals do turn out to be dreamers they can be found out. If not then we'll still have our knockout raise in reserve, rather than simply throwing money everywhere at the first sign of trouble. I'll try and take the agent's temperature before saying much more.
Quite a fun Monday in prospect.
My target only came to market this month, and I was pretty hand-wringing about going from 0.94 to 0.96, talking about being nervous and unsure, still attempting to wheedle the property away as cheaply as possible since we might be the sole contenders.
I don't think the other buyers are spurious, sad to say, so I need to keep my hand in whilst allowing at least a chance for them to be proved hollow before promising half my kingdom.
I don't think the other buyers are spurious, sad to say, so I need to keep my hand in whilst allowing at least a chance for them to be proved hollow before promising half my kingdom.
Agent emailed within the hour calling for BAFO by Weds at 4 pm.
Called up a trusted surveyor from a town about 30 miles away who is in known to be good with older buildings, to see if we can get anything done on a verbal basis before deadline, and thus make our offer not subject to survey. There's so much renovation that it's really just about the damp.
We are in cash, having sweated 10 months to sell our zone 2 shoebox, at least for purchase plus the first half of renovation. After that I need to sell some of my investment portfolio but that's all in equities.
Obviously I won't give any more numbers in case walls have ears
Called up a trusted surveyor from a town about 30 miles away who is in known to be good with older buildings, to see if we can get anything done on a verbal basis before deadline, and thus make our offer not subject to survey. There's so much renovation that it's really just about the damp.
We are in cash, having sweated 10 months to sell our zone 2 shoebox, at least for purchase plus the first half of renovation. After that I need to sell some of my investment portfolio but that's all in equities.
Obviously I won't give any more numbers in case walls have ears
Typically the last house we bid on back in March never went to a bidding war - divorce sale where the vendors just wanted out ASAP and took the first offer that floated their boat.
There will be another house but when and how much will I have pay for the privilege of ripping out someone else's idea of decor?
There will be another house but when and how much will I have pay for the privilege of ripping out someone else's idea of decor?
So what happened?
I forked out for a surveyor to go in on Tuesday, in the name of due diligence and to allow me to make my bid not STS. There's so much work that it almost seems beside the point. Nothing wildly untoward, the roof maybe a little worse than I had bargained on.
I also went in to visit the surveyor on site and spent another hour in the house, digesting all the advice I'd been given and trying to picture the finished project. For the first time I was 'alone' in the rooms - no agent, no family, no architect or whatever. A "sense check", if you will.
And I couldn't do it. Too big, too stuffy in summer and terrifying heating bills in the winter. I thought we'd always feel we'd overpaid, that we'd slog our way through the work losing blood and treasure only to end up with something we hated.
So I emailed on Weds morning to withdraw from the process and rescind our previous offers.
And blow me if by 3 pm the agent wasn't on the phone telling me that the other cash buyers had seen the light and dropped out too, and did I want a bit more time to go back in lower?
I forked out for a surveyor to go in on Tuesday, in the name of due diligence and to allow me to make my bid not STS. There's so much work that it almost seems beside the point. Nothing wildly untoward, the roof maybe a little worse than I had bargained on.
I also went in to visit the surveyor on site and spent another hour in the house, digesting all the advice I'd been given and trying to picture the finished project. For the first time I was 'alone' in the rooms - no agent, no family, no architect or whatever. A "sense check", if you will.
And I couldn't do it. Too big, too stuffy in summer and terrifying heating bills in the winter. I thought we'd always feel we'd overpaid, that we'd slog our way through the work losing blood and treasure only to end up with something we hated.
So I emailed on Weds morning to withdraw from the process and rescind our previous offers.
And blow me if by 3 pm the agent wasn't on the phone telling me that the other cash buyers had seen the light and dropped out too, and did I want a bit more time to go back in lower?
Ummmm, did you miss the post where I decided it would be a foolish endeavour?
But for the sake of completeness here's the property:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/s6p/74284409
and the comparable
https://www.onthemarket.com/details/1627165/
But for the sake of completeness here's the property:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/s6p/74284409
and the comparable
https://www.onthemarket.com/details/1627165/
Skyedriver said:
Too close to the centre
Traffic in and around York is busy
York floods
AND WHERE'S THE GARAGE?
Want to be centralTraffic in and around York is busy
York floods
AND WHERE'S THE GARAGE?
Cycle in town or get the train
It's on top of the Mount (clue is in the name)
Carry on renting a heated storage space OR get rid of the cars
(I know, I'm not doing PH very well)
2 was school property and is now flats, at least one of which is a short-term rental property.
https://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/mansion-house-apa...
However the staircase configuration in 2 is different from 3 (smaller and less central) so makes it easier to convert to flats.
The brick built extension to 3, which is known as College House, will be up for sale next. All the heating etc is run out of the basement at 3 so once the properties are split it's clearly on the block too. Will make flats, potentially with off street parking.
But 3 is just too big to be a sensible family home and the central stairwell gets very gloomy at ground floor level.
https://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/mansion-house-apa...
However the staircase configuration in 2 is different from 3 (smaller and less central) so makes it easier to convert to flats.
The brick built extension to 3, which is known as College House, will be up for sale next. All the heating etc is run out of the basement at 3 so once the properties are split it's clearly on the block too. Will make flats, potentially with off street parking.
But 3 is just too big to be a sensible family home and the central stairwell gets very gloomy at ground floor level.
Edited by Zonergem on Monday 30th July 09:40
Mmmhmmm, she'd still object to the noise. I'd be more tempted to take on the Ashberry guesthouse that Barry Crux has for sale - corner of the Mount and Scarcroft Rd - but again, traffic.
The sad punchline is that we are already involved in a BAFO situation with the same agent on an off-market property, all pre-tarted up and ready to move in. Much higher asking than the first, natch. A solitary viewing yesterday morning, a couple of pertinent questions answered, a full asking price offer and then straight to BAFO by midday today. And still no answer, vendors maybe deciding whether to go to market and try for even more?!
The sad punchline is that we are already involved in a BAFO situation with the same agent on an off-market property, all pre-tarted up and ready to move in. Much higher asking than the first, natch. A solitary viewing yesterday morning, a couple of pertinent questions answered, a full asking price offer and then straight to BAFO by midday today. And still no answer, vendors maybe deciding whether to go to market and try for even more?!
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