Water leak issue
Discussion
We've had an issue with water/damp coming into two bedrooms. This has happened on and off over two years now and in that time we've spent almost £2k on various fixes including having the gutters cleaned, having the gulley behind them resealed, having a coping stone resealed, and replacing a broken roof tile. Nothing has worked.
House is 2004 build, 3-storey, with small parapet wall around the edge of the roof.
I contacted a surveyor who has quoted £90 + VAT per hour for a defect survey, with an estimate of 3 to 5 hours required. That's a lot of money and I don't know accurate this will be. Are they likely to say "the problem is definitely X and you will need to do Y" or do they generally say "it could be X, Y, or Z so you may need to do A, B or C"?
We're at our wits' end! The black staining on the outside suggests to me that it's something to do with water coming down there, but I don't know it's getting in. Can anyone give any advice based on the pictures below? Thanks in advance!
(Apologies for sideways photos. I've tried several times but cannot for the life of me make them right-way-up.)
External photos:
Internal photos:
Top-floor bedroom
Middle-floor bedroom
House is 2004 build, 3-storey, with small parapet wall around the edge of the roof.
I contacted a surveyor who has quoted £90 + VAT per hour for a defect survey, with an estimate of 3 to 5 hours required. That's a lot of money and I don't know accurate this will be. Are they likely to say "the problem is definitely X and you will need to do Y" or do they generally say "it could be X, Y, or Z so you may need to do A, B or C"?
We're at our wits' end! The black staining on the outside suggests to me that it's something to do with water coming down there, but I don't know it's getting in. Can anyone give any advice based on the pictures below? Thanks in advance!
(Apologies for sideways photos. I've tried several times but cannot for the life of me make them right-way-up.)
External photos:
Internal photos:
Top-floor bedroom
Middle-floor bedroom
The Surveyor said:
What an awful detail.
Unfortunately unless there is an obvious defect which was missed the last time it was looked at, any Surveyor visiting that will most likely give suggestions, especially as they will visit when it isn't raining!
Assuming that it is only this outlet that's causing problems, it is something that only a roofer or surveyor having a close inspection of the gutter lining, upstands, flashings, and the outlet detail can review. The easy defect would be if there is a blockage in the down-pipe hopper or where the outfall passes through the parapet, but i'm sure that would have been checked before.
If others were having the same problems it could be that the outlet through the parapet is too small to cope with heavy downfalls and the water is flooding the gutter..
Thanks for the reply. Our immediate neighbours haven't had this issue, but we've not spoken to anyone else. Do you think the staining on the outside gable end is related to the internal issue? I think we've been quite focused on the gulley/gutters as an obvious area, but the staining on the outside has become more noticeable in recent weeks and I'm wondering if that's the point of entry. Unfortunately unless there is an obvious defect which was missed the last time it was looked at, any Surveyor visiting that will most likely give suggestions, especially as they will visit when it isn't raining!
Assuming that it is only this outlet that's causing problems, it is something that only a roofer or surveyor having a close inspection of the gutter lining, upstands, flashings, and the outlet detail can review. The easy defect would be if there is a blockage in the down-pipe hopper or where the outfall passes through the parapet, but i'm sure that would have been checked before.
If others were having the same problems it could be that the outlet through the parapet is too small to cope with heavy downfalls and the water is flooding the gutter..
Lotobear said:
Has the surveyor allowed for a roof level inspection via cherry picker/tower scaffold? Not much point IMO if he/she hasn't
You've eliminated the copings and outlet by the previous work already done. Given there is no cover flashing visible to the tiles I would be looking at the tile/parapet side abutment detail and investigating the secret gutter or soaker arrangement under the tiles which presumably must be the detail protecting that junction. Is it just perspective or are there also narrow cuts to the tiles where they meet the upstand?
If it were me doing the inspection I would visit with a roofer and direct him to strip the tiles to the side abutment and observe what is revealed as he removes them - witness marks will be present where water has previously leaked in
I replied to ask them if their costs allowed for roof level access or whether it would be a street-level inspection, but have not yet had a reply. Agreed that they need to be up there to be worthwhile having over.You've eliminated the copings and outlet by the previous work already done. Given there is no cover flashing visible to the tiles I would be looking at the tile/parapet side abutment detail and investigating the secret gutter or soaker arrangement under the tiles which presumably must be the detail protecting that junction. Is it just perspective or are there also narrow cuts to the tiles where they meet the upstand?
If it were me doing the inspection I would visit with a roofer and direct him to strip the tiles to the side abutment and observe what is revealed as he removes them - witness marks will be present where water has previously leaked in
With regards to your other point, I'm not entirely familiar with the phrasing. In layman's terms are you saying there's nothing obvious stopping water on the flat surface from slipping underneath the first row of roof tiles? And you're asking for the first row at the front of the house, and to the end of the house, to be lifted for an inspection?
ro250 said:
NorthDave said:
Im no specialist but have you not got a bit of an issue at the end of that gulley? It looks like the material which goes up the wall is damaged (behind the cobwebs). Does water coming off the roof not hit that and continue down the wall rather than being collected in the gulley and moving away?
That's what I thought. The build up of muck at the end and signs of overflow on the exterior wall suggest that this gulley overflows.wolfracesonic said:
Have you got a Velux over looking the affected area OP, going by your first pic? If yes, buy yourself some fluorescent drain dye, put some in small paper bag (nothing that will block the outlet!) and throw it into the bottom of the gutter; when it rains the dye dissolves and if the problem is with the bottom of the gutter or more likely where it discharges through the wall you’ll have a nice green stain on your walls inside, sadly it looks you’ll be re-decorating anyway. If not, it’s an area you can rule out.
Negative, photo taken by someone who went up there a year ago to clean the gutters as proof they'd been cleared!CoolHands said:
I feel like I’ve read this before. Did you post a year or 2 ago? if not you’ve got a twin out there with the same problem.
I did. I was advised to get a roofer. We paid £1200 for a 'repair' which didn't work and the company disappeared off the face of the earth. We then had someone else come and tell us it was a broken roof tile and replaced that, which again hasn't worked. We're £2k deep in 'repairs' and not one of the professionals we've had to the house so far has raised any concern with anything people have raised here about flashings etc.Previous repair quote:
I was hoping to get a roofer over yesterday afternoon, but when I called him around 4pm he said he wasn't able to make it. We had a chat about the situation and he suggested (based on these photos which I'd also sent to him) that the issue could be a lack of a 'tray' under the coping stones. The thing is, he said we don't have this tray at all and yet only one part of the house is experiencing the issue. He said he'd go up to have a look, but he was busy for 'at least the next month'.
Finding someone competent AND available appears to be the biggest challenge.
CoolHands said:
I got ripped off too by an Irish sort. Once doing the task tried to extend the job to all sorts of other unnecessary stuff. Very difficult to get rid of them and only pay the original agreed price. My advice avoid anyone with even a hint of an Irish accent. Unfortunately roofing seems to attract them, probably cos you can’t check on the standard of their ‘work’
The guy who did this had a local accent. You get cowboys of every nationality.We had a roofer visit today who told us the three issues which need resolving are;
- A crack in the gutter behind the parapet wall
- The flashing is corroded
- There's no overlap in the flashing
And quoted £850 for the repair.
My only concern here is that they don't have any Checkatrade/TrustedTrader type presence, and although they have the NFRC logo on the van, they don't seem to be listed. I called to ask them if they're listed under another name (they have three names on the van, two location-based and one generic "repairs ltd" type name) and he confirmed the name they're listed with... but still, can't find them.
We have yet another contractor coming round on Friday in any case to get a second opinion, but based on the above does the cost/work/solution sound reasonable to those here who know about these things?
- A crack in the gutter behind the parapet wall
- The flashing is corroded
- There's no overlap in the flashing
And quoted £850 for the repair.
My only concern here is that they don't have any Checkatrade/TrustedTrader type presence, and although they have the NFRC logo on the van, they don't seem to be listed. I called to ask them if they're listed under another name (they have three names on the van, two location-based and one generic "repairs ltd" type name) and he confirmed the name they're listed with... but still, can't find them.
We have yet another contractor coming round on Friday in any case to get a second opinion, but based on the above does the cost/work/solution sound reasonable to those here who know about these things?
I've contacted at least 7 roofers, including those recommended above, of which only three responded. One offered a verbal quote of £850 as above but didn't seem to be listed on any reputable websites; One has not quoted despite several chases, in each case he'll "call me this evening".
The third has quoted as below, but it appears to be a much bigger job than expected and hugely more expensive than anticipated. I don't know anything about roofs/roof construction sp any feedback on the below would be really useful.
The third has quoted as below, but it appears to be a much bigger job than expected and hugely more expensive than anticipated. I don't know anything about roofs/roof construction sp any feedback on the below would be really useful.
Quote said:
Quotation to carry out remedial repairs to your front box guttering and roof
Upon our appointment, I inspected your property and found there is an ongoing issue with a leak
from the front box gutter. I accessed the roof and stripped some tiles out for a closer inspection and
found that there is poorly designed secret gutter that runs down the left-side parapet wall that is
blocked and causing rain water to spill out the gutter and run down the roof behind the tiles. The
box gutter outlet has been poorly installed and has allowed rainwater to penetrate though to the
structural timbers and rot the timber decking. The timber decking is that rotten around the outlet it
has sunk below this which is preventing the rainwater from dispersing correctly. I am proposing a full
overhaul of the front box gutter section and to install a lead soaker system up the left-hand parapet
wall. There is quite a lot of work to be done but with all the poor attempts in the past I feel this
should be done correctly once and for all. The proposed works are as follows.
• Access the roof by the scaffolding already provided.
• We will strip the 1st course of tiles that fall onto the box gutter and stack for re-use.
• We will strip your section of box gutter and dispose of old materials.
• The existing damaged decking will be removed, and old materials disposed of.
• All damp structural timbers will be treated with wood preservative.
• A new deck will be installed using 18mm OSB3 structural ply which will be fixed with 70mm
wood screws. We will also create a timber kirb separating your box gutter from your
neighbours.
• A new custom fit lead outlet will be installed and fixed to the new decking.
• A new Firestone EPDM roof covering will be installed, all abutments and the outlet will be
sealed to manufactures guidelines.
• We will seal your new box gutter EPDM to your neighbour’s box gutter using a solvent based
primer.
• We will strip 3 tiles away from the parapet from the box gutter to the to of the roof exposing
the secret gutter.
• The secret gutter will be cleared of all built up debris and re-dressed to prevent rainwater
overspill.
• We will install plastic eave support trays along the box gutter tucked under the roofing felt,
this will prevent the felt sagging behind the box gutter.
• We will re-tile the stripped area of roof using the existing tiles, we will install individual lead
soakers on each tiles course to prevent water ingress in the future.
• Any broken tiles will be replaced with well-matched replacements.
• All old materials and debris will be disposed of.
TOTAL BOX GUTTER INC LEAD OUTLET: £1295.00+VAT
TOTAL ROOF WORKS: £895.00+VAT
As an aside, their quote and the invoice for the scaffolding they put up list VAT, but no VAT number. Is there a way to look up a VAT number from the company name? Call me a cynic, but a part of me questions whether they're registered for VAT and are still trying to charge for it...Upon our appointment, I inspected your property and found there is an ongoing issue with a leak
from the front box gutter. I accessed the roof and stripped some tiles out for a closer inspection and
found that there is poorly designed secret gutter that runs down the left-side parapet wall that is
blocked and causing rain water to spill out the gutter and run down the roof behind the tiles. The
box gutter outlet has been poorly installed and has allowed rainwater to penetrate though to the
structural timbers and rot the timber decking. The timber decking is that rotten around the outlet it
has sunk below this which is preventing the rainwater from dispersing correctly. I am proposing a full
overhaul of the front box gutter section and to install a lead soaker system up the left-hand parapet
wall. There is quite a lot of work to be done but with all the poor attempts in the past I feel this
should be done correctly once and for all. The proposed works are as follows.
• Access the roof by the scaffolding already provided.
• We will strip the 1st course of tiles that fall onto the box gutter and stack for re-use.
• We will strip your section of box gutter and dispose of old materials.
• The existing damaged decking will be removed, and old materials disposed of.
• All damp structural timbers will be treated with wood preservative.
• A new deck will be installed using 18mm OSB3 structural ply which will be fixed with 70mm
wood screws. We will also create a timber kirb separating your box gutter from your
neighbours.
• A new custom fit lead outlet will be installed and fixed to the new decking.
• A new Firestone EPDM roof covering will be installed, all abutments and the outlet will be
sealed to manufactures guidelines.
• We will seal your new box gutter EPDM to your neighbour’s box gutter using a solvent based
primer.
• We will strip 3 tiles away from the parapet from the box gutter to the to of the roof exposing
the secret gutter.
• The secret gutter will be cleared of all built up debris and re-dressed to prevent rainwater
overspill.
• We will install plastic eave support trays along the box gutter tucked under the roofing felt,
this will prevent the felt sagging behind the box gutter.
• We will re-tile the stripped area of roof using the existing tiles, we will install individual lead
soakers on each tiles course to prevent water ingress in the future.
• Any broken tiles will be replaced with well-matched replacements.
• All old materials and debris will be disposed of.
TOTAL BOX GUTTER INC LEAD OUTLET: £1295.00+VAT
TOTAL ROOF WORKS: £895.00+VAT
Edited by romeogolf on Friday 7th February 10:13
So the work is nearly done, but they've used a different type of coping stone to what was there previously (previously it was a polystyrene type stone). We'd had several conversations with the guy doing it and although he's tried, he can't find a suitable like-for-like match.
Our concern is that it doesn't quite match next door (or the rest of the street!) and our house will look a bit odd in comparison. Are we over-thinking this, or would you accept this repair?
Couple of photos:
Our concern is that it doesn't quite match next door (or the rest of the street!) and our house will look a bit odd in comparison. Are we over-thinking this, or would you accept this repair?
Couple of photos:
Lotobear said:
what was the problem then?
Initial Quote said:
Quotation to carry out remedial repairs to your front box guttering and roof
Upon our appointment, I inspected your property and found there is an ongoing issue with a leak
from the front box gutter. I accessed the roof and stripped some tiles out for a closer inspection and
found that there is poorly designed secret gutter that runs down the left-side parapet wall that is
blocked and causing rain water to spill out the gutter and run down the roof behind the tiles. The
box gutter outlet has been poorly installed and has allowed rainwater to penetrate though to the
structural timbers and rot the timber decking. The timber decking is that rotten around the outlet it
has sunk below this which is preventing the rainwater from dispersing correctly. I am proposing a full
overhaul of the front box gutter section and to install a lead soaker system up the left-hand parapet
wall. There is quite a lot of work to be done but with all the poor attempts in the past I feel this
should be done correctly once and for all. The proposed works are as follows.
• Access the roof by the scaffolding already provided.
• We will strip the 1st course of tiles that fall onto the box gutter and stack for re-use.
• We will strip your section of box gutter and dispose of old materials.
• The existing damaged decking will be removed, and old materials disposed of.
• All damp structural timbers will be treated with wood preservative.
• A new deck will be installed using 18mm OSB3 structural ply which will be fixed with 70mm
wood screws. We will also create a timber kirb separating your box gutter from your
neighbours.
• A new custom fit lead outlet will be installed and fixed to the new decking.
• A new Firestone EPDM roof covering will be installed, all abutments and the outlet will be
sealed to manufactures guidelines.
• We will seal your new box gutter EPDM to your neighbour’s box gutter using a solvent based
primer.
• We will strip 3 tiles away from the parapet from the box gutter to the to of the roof exposing
the secret gutter.
• The secret gutter will be cleared of all built up debris and re-dressed to prevent rainwater
overspill.
• We will install plastic eave support trays along the box gutter tucked under the roofing felt,
this will prevent the felt sagging behind the box gutter.
• We will re-tile the stripped area of roof using the existing tiles, we will install individual lead
soakers on each tiles course to prevent water ingress in the future.
• Any broken tiles will be replaced with well-matched replacements.
• All old materials and debris will be disposed of.
TOTAL BOX GUTTER INC LEAD OUTLET: £1295.00+VAT
TOTAL ROOF WORKS: £895.00+VAT
Upon our appointment, I inspected your property and found there is an ongoing issue with a leak
from the front box gutter. I accessed the roof and stripped some tiles out for a closer inspection and
found that there is poorly designed secret gutter that runs down the left-side parapet wall that is
blocked and causing rain water to spill out the gutter and run down the roof behind the tiles. The
box gutter outlet has been poorly installed and has allowed rainwater to penetrate though to the
structural timbers and rot the timber decking. The timber decking is that rotten around the outlet it
has sunk below this which is preventing the rainwater from dispersing correctly. I am proposing a full
overhaul of the front box gutter section and to install a lead soaker system up the left-hand parapet
wall. There is quite a lot of work to be done but with all the poor attempts in the past I feel this
should be done correctly once and for all. The proposed works are as follows.
• Access the roof by the scaffolding already provided.
• We will strip the 1st course of tiles that fall onto the box gutter and stack for re-use.
• We will strip your section of box gutter and dispose of old materials.
• The existing damaged decking will be removed, and old materials disposed of.
• All damp structural timbers will be treated with wood preservative.
• A new deck will be installed using 18mm OSB3 structural ply which will be fixed with 70mm
wood screws. We will also create a timber kirb separating your box gutter from your
neighbours.
• A new custom fit lead outlet will be installed and fixed to the new decking.
• A new Firestone EPDM roof covering will be installed, all abutments and the outlet will be
sealed to manufactures guidelines.
• We will seal your new box gutter EPDM to your neighbour’s box gutter using a solvent based
primer.
• We will strip 3 tiles away from the parapet from the box gutter to the to of the roof exposing
the secret gutter.
• The secret gutter will be cleared of all built up debris and re-dressed to prevent rainwater
overspill.
• We will install plastic eave support trays along the box gutter tucked under the roofing felt,
this will prevent the felt sagging behind the box gutter.
• We will re-tile the stripped area of roof using the existing tiles, we will install individual lead
soakers on each tiles course to prevent water ingress in the future.
• Any broken tiles will be replaced with well-matched replacements.
• All old materials and debris will be disposed of.
TOTAL BOX GUTTER INC LEAD OUTLET: £1295.00+VAT
TOTAL ROOF WORKS: £895.00+VAT
Additional Works said:
We have taken the plunge and stripped and recovered the box gutter today and it has paid off as it's all gone well.. apart from the parapet wall we talked about it's alot worse than we thought it was going to be. I have attached some photos but there is alot of wanted ingress coming in along the left hand parapet wall the fibreglass clippings have started to really break through which is causing quite alot of condensation which is also all running down to the bottom corner.
Please see attached photos
Please see attached photos
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