Conservation area, enforcement order
Discussion
Quick Q for the planning gurus on here.
We are in the process of buying a property in a conservation area. The searches have flagged an enforcement order dated 2003 to remove a car port, a UPVC replacement window and debris. The car port is still in situ. We asked the vendors to confirm the status, and they basically said p
s off its historic and not to be worried about, and it is for us to confirm if it has been complied with. Well, it clearly hasn't (need to check with surveyor re UPVC replacement window). The vendors have been in the property 38 years, so it is them the enforcement order was served on.
Does anyone know the risk of the council taking further enforcement action 17 years later? I would have thought the council would have sought a court order or the like if their enforcement order was simply ignored ...
We are in the process of buying a property in a conservation area. The searches have flagged an enforcement order dated 2003 to remove a car port, a UPVC replacement window and debris. The car port is still in situ. We asked the vendors to confirm the status, and they basically said p
s off its historic and not to be worried about, and it is for us to confirm if it has been complied with. Well, it clearly hasn't (need to check with surveyor re UPVC replacement window). The vendors have been in the property 38 years, so it is them the enforcement order was served on. Does anyone know the risk of the council taking further enforcement action 17 years later? I would have thought the council would have sought a court order or the like if their enforcement order was simply ignored ...
We have a few outstanding issues, in respect of all of which the vendors are basically saying ps off.
- Aforementioned enforcement order.
- Can't confirm ownership of the boundary fences (though presumably my solicitor can, but they are just as unhelpful as the vendors sadly)
- Claim the rear extension built in 2007 is building regulation exempt, I am fairly sure it isn't, but won't do anything about it
- Won't get the boiler serviced despite it not being serviced since 2009 (not really worth falling out over)
- Won't confirm whether or not they have consent for building over a public gravity sewer (not clear whether they needed it given age of extension)
As a FTB buyer, I am not sure whether I just bend over and say whatever and crack on or push back and say no you've got to be a bit more helpful ...
s off. - Aforementioned enforcement order.
- Can't confirm ownership of the boundary fences (though presumably my solicitor can, but they are just as unhelpful as the vendors sadly)
- Claim the rear extension built in 2007 is building regulation exempt, I am fairly sure it isn't, but won't do anything about it
- Won't get the boiler serviced despite it not being serviced since 2009 (not really worth falling out over)
- Won't confirm whether or not they have consent for building over a public gravity sewer (not clear whether they needed it given age of extension)
As a FTB buyer, I am not sure whether I just bend over and say whatever and crack on or push back and say no you've got to be a bit more helpful ...
z4RRSchris said:
i would tell them to fk off and find another buyer.
They should either replace / remove the items listed in the enforcement notice, or insure against it.
ditto the other things, they should insure against it.
Yes, maybe, but we are probably at least £1500 deep by this point (survey, broker, searches, solicitor fees) and we do like the house and want to complete the purchase. So I'd rather have the issues resolved ...k off and find another buyer. They should either replace / remove the items listed in the enforcement notice, or insure against it.
ditto the other things, they should insure against it.
FlipFlopGriff said:
Can you put a cost on what you may need to do to resolve the issues? if so take that off your offer and tell them the reasons why. I can't understand unhelpful sellers unless they either 1) have lots of interest and expect offers to flood in or 2) they don;t want to sell.
FFG.
Well the bigger issue is I like the car port being there so would rather not remove it. I am sure it wouldn't be hugely expensive to rip down if it needed (it's really just a wooden frame with a plastic roof). The window situation I need to confirm but obviously could be more expensive. The lack of building regulations is a bigger problem, but afaik the age means enforcement action is very unlikely so the risk is whether or not it falls down. FFG.
Bill said:
- Seventeen year old enforcement order. Worst case scenario we have to remove a car port (inexpensive), and possibly replace a window (to confirm with surveyor). Enforcement risk after that many years seems low.
- No building regulations or planning permission on a thirteen year old extension. As far as I understand it, the council could no longer take enforcement action in respect of planning permission, and would be very unlikely to take enforcement action in respect of building regulations. Surveyor can confirm that it appears to be built properly, but noting it hasn't fallen down yet.
- Boiler hasn't been serviced since 2009. Might need to budget for a new boiler, it's old anyway, think walking away over an old boiler would be silly. Could get serviced myself in advance of exchange for £80.
- They have 'no information with regard to ownership of boundary fences'. Apparently title is silent, joint and responsible for both sides. Risk is we need to agree with neighbouring properties before changing fences etc.
- Public gravity sewer built over. This could be a bigger issue, but I think the answer is the extension was built in the mid 80s before consent was required. Extension has been up forty years and it hasn't been an issue to date.
None of these issues scream to me walk away, should they?
I am waiting on my surveyor's report which might give a reason to walk away however ...
Edited by Bussolini on Friday 24th January 16:00
Hmm.
The problem is you can insure against enforcement action, but not against it being improperly constructed (the enforcement order doesn't relate to the rear extension). Does that mean no building regulations is a walk away issue? (Unless the vendor is willing to get retrospective building regulation approval, which I doubt, given the risk it opens him up to).
The problem is you can insure against enforcement action, but not against it being improperly constructed (the enforcement order doesn't relate to the rear extension). Does that mean no building regulations is a walk away issue? (Unless the vendor is willing to get retrospective building regulation approval, which I doubt, given the risk it opens him up to).
Good news is I just spoke to the surveyor and he gave the house a broad thumbs up. No major issues, "some small repairs required as with any house", extension probably needed both planning and building regulations but risk of enforcement is "close to zilch" and there is no sign of movement or obvious signs of poor construction (normal caveats applied, is timber walled probably on a concrete base). It does have UPVC windows, so need to push harder on enforcement order, as it seems planning permission was probably required for those to be installed - but "probably no issues getting planning for them".
So the question is does the apparent lack of care by the seller (elderly couple who have been in the house 38 years) mean that we should still be concerned?
God buying houses is stressful, especially your first one when you don't know what you're doing!
So the question is does the apparent lack of care by the seller (elderly couple who have been in the house 38 years) mean that we should still be concerned?
God buying houses is stressful, especially your first one when you don't know what you're doing!
borcy said:
How much do you want the house, how long have you been looking for?
I'd say the fact that they've been there a while and a knocking on a bit means that they can't be bothered with ticking every box.
Gut instinct?
The house ticks a lot of boxes - it's a three bed end-terraced period freehold house with a garden and parking for 2/3 cars with relatively easy commute to central London for sub 500k for FTB stamp duty relief. Since we've been looking, three other houses have came up in this estate and all three have came off the market in a week. It's a lot better value than two bed flats we have been looking at for similar cash. The surveyor's opinion has got some comfort, so think we will push back on the enforcement order but can probably live with the rest of the issues. I'd say the fact that they've been there a while and a knocking on a bit means that they can't be bothered with ticking every box.
Gut instinct?
The most shocking thing is the vendors bought it for £1200 in 1982 ... I think possibly on right to buy, as some of the houses in the estate are housing association and they bought it from a limited company.
marky911 said:
Blimey, I wish that were the case up here in Northumberland. We had to jump through all kinds of hoops to bring our almost derelict house up to modern standards.
We even had to apply for planning permission to have a front door that wasn’t white. Had to go to a planning meeting after 3 months to argue the case, because once the parish council object (which they always do) the planner can no longer pass it without it going to committee.
I could write a book on our woes with the planning enforcement officer and parish council (1.2m fence out front was a memorable one).
Our actual planning officer was a great guy who agreed with every single thing we wanted to do, but like I say, it was taken out of his control every time.
I won’t buy in a conservation area again unless the house is already very much how I’d want it. Interior rules are pretty relaxed obviously but anything you can see from the road is a nightmare.
I certainly wouldn’t buy a property with unresolved planning issues. It’s just stress you don’t need. Unless you aren’t bothered about losing the car port or uPVC windows.
We wouldn't intend to do any changes to the outside of the property, so that is probably not an issue, and I am aware that planning permission is required even to change the front door. It has the advantage that it keeps the estate a pretty period estate with lots of greenery and pleasant houses, which is a rarity in London (at least at this price!). We even had to apply for planning permission to have a front door that wasn’t white. Had to go to a planning meeting after 3 months to argue the case, because once the parish council object (which they always do) the planner can no longer pass it without it going to committee.
I could write a book on our woes with the planning enforcement officer and parish council (1.2m fence out front was a memorable one).
Our actual planning officer was a great guy who agreed with every single thing we wanted to do, but like I say, it was taken out of his control every time.
I won’t buy in a conservation area again unless the house is already very much how I’d want it. Interior rules are pretty relaxed obviously but anything you can see from the road is a nightmare.
I certainly wouldn’t buy a property with unresolved planning issues. It’s just stress you don’t need. Unless you aren’t bothered about losing the car port or uPVC windows.
I think I have concluded that we need to get to the bottom of the 2003 enforcement order, but am less concerned about the rear extension.
borcy said:
It doesn't sound too bad on the face of it, however it'd make me nervous about what other 'legacy' issues there are lurking.
Could you stomach 30k (or similar) of faffing about in the future for other issues ?
It would be pretty annoying, but aren't all houses a bit of a risk like that? I hoped a building survey (an expensive one!) would reduce that risk.Could you stomach 30k (or similar) of faffing about in the future for other issues ?
blueg33 said:
I would be more worried about living with the kitchen tiling and wooden ceiling than old enforcement on the car port 
I would check with the water authority (probably Thames Water) about the build over agreement , or just insure it. (note insurance is a sticking plaster not a fix).
Yes the interior needs some modernisation I would check with the water authority (probably Thames Water) about the build over agreement , or just insure it. (note insurance is a sticking plaster not a fix).
it's perfectly liveable though!As a brief update, the conveyancer has now told us the mortgage lender is happy to proceed with an indemnity policy regarding the rear extension. Which is VERY annoying, as we had postponed having the survey done (£714!) until the conveyancer confirmed the mortgage lender was happy to proceed, which she did. I have no doubt the seller will refuse to cover the cost and we will then have to decide whether to play hard ball or not.
The conveyancer has also reached out to the council on the enforcement order, without checking with me first. Might this cause a big issue as it is effectively flagging to the council that there may be a planning problem with the car port and/or plastic windows?
The conveyancer has also reached out to the council on the enforcement order, without checking with me first. Might this cause a big issue as it is effectively flagging to the council that there may be a planning problem with the car port and/or plastic windows?
Edited by Bussolini on Thursday 30th January 10:27
blueg33 said:
If you are taking out an indemnity policy, it will be a condition of the policy that you don't talk to anyone about the items covered.
I don't think we could get an indemnity policy in respect of the enforcement notice anyway, as there was already enforcement action taken. It's more that the Council might say "Oh, the enforcement order wasn't complied with, let's take further enforcement action". Survey in. Few things jumped out at me re the roof, problematic and worth rediscussing price or typical arse covering?
Summary was:
"This property is in a reasonable condition but with some items of maintenance and repair required.
The property is considered a reasonable proposition for purchase if you are prepared to accept the
costs and inconvenience of dealing with the various repair works reported. These deficiencies are
quite common in properties of this age and type. Further investigations are recommended with
respect to the electrical installation, the gas installation and the central heating and hot water
systems."
"The roofs were covered with concrete plain tiles with concrete ridge tiles. Many slipped tiles were
noted, particularly to the front eaves and as is quite usual, some mortar deterioration was evident to
the ridge tiles and some localised repair will be beneficial when high level access is next gained.
Broken tiles should be replaced."
"The quantity of slipped tiles suggest that the roof covering is approaching the end of its effective life and ongoing maintenance and repairs should be expected prior to renewal in the next 5 to 10 years"
Extension felt roof - "The roof covering is approaching the end of its effective life and the surface finish is deteriorating. This will require renewal in the shorter term"
Summary was:
"This property is in a reasonable condition but with some items of maintenance and repair required.
The property is considered a reasonable proposition for purchase if you are prepared to accept the
costs and inconvenience of dealing with the various repair works reported. These deficiencies are
quite common in properties of this age and type. Further investigations are recommended with
respect to the electrical installation, the gas installation and the central heating and hot water
systems."
"The roofs were covered with concrete plain tiles with concrete ridge tiles. Many slipped tiles were
noted, particularly to the front eaves and as is quite usual, some mortar deterioration was evident to
the ridge tiles and some localised repair will be beneficial when high level access is next gained.
Broken tiles should be replaced."
"The quantity of slipped tiles suggest that the roof covering is approaching the end of its effective life and ongoing maintenance and repairs should be expected prior to renewal in the next 5 to 10 years"
Extension felt roof - "The roof covering is approaching the end of its effective life and the surface finish is deteriorating. This will require renewal in the shorter term"
twokcc said:
You live in wrong.place. In Yorkshire could give you name, been in business for more than 40 years give you a quote and do you a brilliant job
The suggestion seems to be they would give a free quote on my own property, but not on one I am looking to buy (presumably because too many people just want it as a negotiating tool rather than having any real intention to get work done...). Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff