Changing company during works
Discussion
Hi,
We were having some major re-modelling of the garden including fences replaced and trees down.
The guys started three days before the lockdown and have done the prep work (cleared a lot of scrub, moved a lot of our existing plants that would potentially get damaged by fallen wood, and stored all our outdoor ornaments and furniture we didn't have space for in an Iso on our drive and had made and delivered the new fence panels and started clearing routes for felling the big (80ft plus) trees.
We've paid company 1 for all this "at cost" which to me seemed reasonable and I'm not going to complain about via bank transfer in March to "company 1 tree services limited".
The guys are going to finish the estimated remaining two-three days work next week or early the following week. However, I've been asked to pay cash now to the skip company directly (originally they were going to pay for the skip as it was cheaper for them to do in under their bulk deal and avoid me having to pay VAT) - £800 for four 8yrd skips (price seems OK, pay cash????).
The four guys finishing the job though are now "company 2 garden services limited"; 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work' who will invoice me fully including VAT, but haven't yet been able to go to a bank to set up a company account, so if I can get cash (and there is a helpful list of cash-points at garages etc which are outside and easy to access during social distancing attached to their Whatsapp message) can I pay them in cash, or pay them to their individual bank accounts for the labour and any other outstanding dues........
Total job value about £6k, £2k already paid. I'm jut a bit worried there is a bit of a scam going on her e- though I know two of the guys and I don't think they be up to owt, but the third one is known as a chancer. I don't know guy number 4.Guys 1 - 3 have done lots of garden work on our road in recent years and tendered our garden before we moved here , hence our continued use for them to trim trees back, and removed the two damaged in the winter storms.
Neighbour reckons company 1 has furloughed their staff and staff are at company 2 instead. How do I pay these guys and stay legal myself? Only pay on invoice?
We were having some major re-modelling of the garden including fences replaced and trees down.
The guys started three days before the lockdown and have done the prep work (cleared a lot of scrub, moved a lot of our existing plants that would potentially get damaged by fallen wood, and stored all our outdoor ornaments and furniture we didn't have space for in an Iso on our drive and had made and delivered the new fence panels and started clearing routes for felling the big (80ft plus) trees.
We've paid company 1 for all this "at cost" which to me seemed reasonable and I'm not going to complain about via bank transfer in March to "company 1 tree services limited".
The guys are going to finish the estimated remaining two-three days work next week or early the following week. However, I've been asked to pay cash now to the skip company directly (originally they were going to pay for the skip as it was cheaper for them to do in under their bulk deal and avoid me having to pay VAT) - £800 for four 8yrd skips (price seems OK, pay cash????).
The four guys finishing the job though are now "company 2 garden services limited"; 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work' who will invoice me fully including VAT, but haven't yet been able to go to a bank to set up a company account, so if I can get cash (and there is a helpful list of cash-points at garages etc which are outside and easy to access during social distancing attached to their Whatsapp message) can I pay them in cash, or pay them to their individual bank accounts for the labour and any other outstanding dues........
Total job value about £6k, £2k already paid. I'm jut a bit worried there is a bit of a scam going on her e- though I know two of the guys and I don't think they be up to owt, but the third one is known as a chancer. I don't know guy number 4.Guys 1 - 3 have done lots of garden work on our road in recent years and tendered our garden before we moved here , hence our continued use for them to trim trees back, and removed the two damaged in the winter storms.
Neighbour reckons company 1 has furloughed their staff and staff are at company 2 instead. How do I pay these guys and stay legal myself? Only pay on invoice?
What, don't pay, then what? It isn't just the VAT. If the same guys furloughed from one firm are working for another firm isn't that a bit off (speaking as someone who has lost 60% of income, but was in a place to accept it and think of early retirement instead). Perhaps I'm raising the moral bar to high and making problems for myself by overthinking and hearing neighbourly scuttlebutt.
I'm happy to pay for work, just don't want to get myself in trouble.
Perhaps I've been sold a duff story, but if you as a homeowner paid in cash knowing tax was been avoided you get liable as well? Will it be like that if
[url]https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2012/08/09/have-you-paid-cash-hand[/url}
I'm happy to pay for work, just don't want to get myself in trouble.
Perhaps I've been sold a duff story, but if you as a homeowner paid in cash knowing tax was been avoided you get liable as well? Will it be like that if
[url]https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2012/08/09/have-you-paid-cash-hand[/url}
Hi no, not sour at all. I did ring for skips and it is a three week lead time and the price is higher so they are still honouring their side of the bargain. Glad to get the work done tbh, Got a mate mid extension laid off wondering how he can put the walls back on his house and sell up as his niche (pilot - still in bonded period) has been killed for many months.
I think my neighbour must be winding me up then if this seems above board. I can't quite see how four guys furloughed from one company (perhaps) can then all form a new four man company that only takes cash to finish works but perhaps I'm being daft.
I shall pay the price I'd agreed to pay and if any future crap is thrown back at me I shall call my fellow phers as defendants. Thanks chaps / chapesses/ others in between!
I think my neighbour must be winding me up then if this seems above board. I can't quite see how four guys furloughed from one company (perhaps) can then all form a new four man company that only takes cash to finish works but perhaps I'm being daft.
I shall pay the price I'd agreed to pay and if any future crap is thrown back at me I shall call my fellow phers as defendants. Thanks chaps / chapesses/ others in between!
Matt_E_Mulsion said:
It sounds to me that Company 1 has most likely Furloughed the staff and claiming off the government, whilst this fantasy Company 2 are the same lads wanting cash in hand payments with hardly any paper trail, hence you having to pay cash for the skips.
I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
Thanks guys, actually you'd put a thought in my head - so I'll e-mail company A to "confirm that they have still suspended works" and that they are OK for me to pay company B for the remaining works and I'll quote their prices back to them for both sets of works. I've no e-mail for company B, but I'll photo the e-mail and send that to their mobile number. That way they both know I know what is going on.I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
The lads are good workers it seems and the two we've used over the years seem real nice fellows, not the sort that'd throw a business away just like that but who knows what goes on in the background. Some people are getting caught out in this CV-19 / work malarkey, I've a good friend whom for years played every bit of IR-35 and expenses "to get his tax bill right down" and paying himself minimum wage whilst his "company" bring in over six figures per annum has really come to bite him! He even thought about "applying on his companies behalf (i.e. his Client who ended his contract) for the 80% contract value salary" until it was explained to him how companies claim through payroll, you don't just ring HMRC and they send you a cheque.
Right decided what to do.
As 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
As 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
Kermit power said:
StanleyT said:
Right decided what to do.
As 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
So basically what you're saying is that you're happy to support these bAs 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
ds in taking advantage of a crisis to rip off all of us gullible taxpayers just so long as there's a paper trail?Still, at least you'll be getting your trees cut down, eh?
[Ooops, I didn't explicitly state that, it is inferred it via 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work' - but basically we've three trees 80 ft high and the middle one is split held up by the other two, which are both showing the same disease - the trees are 80% of the works, the rest is minor tidying up and replacing the whole aged fence, of which some was damaged by falling braches off the tree in Feb].
Already got sweaty hairy plums with the wind getting up today for the first time in weeks, the creaking is not calming! This should have been done a couple of months ago!!!!!!
An no, I'm not happy, why do you think I started the thread, I smelt a rat and wondered what to do. I just couldn't tell at first what flavour rat, I thought more a general invoice scam nd my neighbour was winding me up, but the consensus seems furlough scam. Will provide a good printout to send to HMRC if I need to!!!!! (Print to pdf hit now).
'Fraid not. And I know where #1 and #2 live and have lived so no 3.14keys to be blamed here.
Checked companies house Beta on company 1 and still trading, plus all previous records look legit.
One of my neighbours has found out I've got work restarting next week "how dare I bring workmen onto our road in lockdown...........!". FFS who has been emptying your bins then for the last seven weeks!!!!!!
Checked companies house Beta on company 1 and still trading, plus all previous records look legit.
One of my neighbours has found out I've got work restarting next week "how dare I bring workmen onto our road in lockdown...........!". FFS who has been emptying your bins then for the last seven weeks!!!!!!
Well the work was done.
Asked about payment.
Company 2 (only the two guys we knew from company 1 did the work) now had a bank a/c and gave us a VAT invoice.
When we asked about the switch of companies and the cash / here are your bank machines messages all seeming a bit strange to us we got the full story.
Company 1 did contract gardening and invoiced at completion of work for payment nett 30 days. Basically staring mid March every "rich tawt in Cheshire and Mersyside" that claimed it is unsafe to allow workers into their gardens" decided not to pay or cancel jobs completed! The change of company / cashpoint list was a 'white of eyes test' to filter out any other customers taking them on for jobs whom were then going to excuse on payment due to furlucking or other CV-19 excuses.
Company 1 will probably go under due to 70% of March invoices unpaid. But they had enough money to pay their wages if not other expenses like fuel, kit, serviing kit, future tax etc.
Company 2 have had a number of calls from potential clients (co-incidentally who used in the past company 1 but couldn't afford to pay in March or April 2020) that who need a new "Gardening Service", some quite desperately as the local tips are not yet open for green waste so hedges and gardens are getting overgrown badly with the glorious spring we have had.
Company 2 are booked up unfortunately for months with "payment in advance" contracts. Seems a few people playing the system are getting their hands faced to them on a plate.....but it wasn't the ones I expected playing the system.
(A bit of our job did get foobared but that was out poor 'client spec' now in hindsight!).
Asked about payment.
Company 2 (only the two guys we knew from company 1 did the work) now had a bank a/c and gave us a VAT invoice.
When we asked about the switch of companies and the cash / here are your bank machines messages all seeming a bit strange to us we got the full story.
Company 1 did contract gardening and invoiced at completion of work for payment nett 30 days. Basically staring mid March every "rich tawt in Cheshire and Mersyside" that claimed it is unsafe to allow workers into their gardens" decided not to pay or cancel jobs completed! The change of company / cashpoint list was a 'white of eyes test' to filter out any other customers taking them on for jobs whom were then going to excuse on payment due to furlucking or other CV-19 excuses.
Company 1 will probably go under due to 70% of March invoices unpaid. But they had enough money to pay their wages if not other expenses like fuel, kit, serviing kit, future tax etc.
Company 2 have had a number of calls from potential clients (co-incidentally who used in the past company 1 but couldn't afford to pay in March or April 2020) that who need a new "Gardening Service", some quite desperately as the local tips are not yet open for green waste so hedges and gardens are getting overgrown badly with the glorious spring we have had.
Company 2 are booked up unfortunately for months with "payment in advance" contracts. Seems a few people playing the system are getting their hands faced to them on a plate.....but it wasn't the ones I expected playing the system.
(A bit of our job did get foobared but that was out poor 'client spec' now in hindsight!).
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