Grade 2 listed problems

[Gullwings]

Currently in a situation where our building survey has flagged up numerous issues with a property we are purchasing. The house is done up quite well so all of these issues were hidden.

All windows in the house (x15 sash) need to be replaced due to rot, roof needs replacing, chimney stack needs inspecting and repair etc etc

How long would all this take to fix, taking into account the need to get approval from the conservation authorities?

This is my first experience with a listed house, so would appreciate any takes on this!

[Gullwings]

Yes we went with a local trusted surveyor who has a special interest in listed buildings. I can't be 100% sure he isn't just covering his ass, but he did seem quite shocked during the post survey rundown.

Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area said:

Exactly. When we bought our 230-year-old listed house a few years ago the survey report said that various issues needed to be remedied for example damp in a couple of places, but the damp specialist I had round after we moved in told me that not one of the problem areas needed attention.

Have you looked at the windows? All 15 being rotten sounds highly unlikely to me, and how bad can the roof be?!?

I've looked at the windows but know bugger all about them. They did look freshly painted-over though, which the surveyor suspected was to hide their real condition. In terms of the roof, apparently it's letting damp in and run down the front of the house.

Based on what you've said I think it might be worth getting a damp specialist to review it, at least for a second opinion/ detailed quotes. Why did your surveyor mention damp if there wasn't any?!

[Gullwings]

Echoing some views on here, our estate agent and vendors have cast serious doubt on the magnitude of the surveyors claims.

The vendor provided a number of photographs which supposedly cast doubt on the surveyors observations.

We still back our surveyor to be honest, but will get some additional experts to look over, and possibly quantify any repair costs (if applicable)

[Gullwings]

So we've gone round with a builder/roofer, and the rough quote to fix the major structural issues is around 60k ... Disappointing considering this house was marketed as recently renovated and maintained to a high standard.

This includes
- Replace rear roof, repair chimney stacks x2
- Replace a few windows, repair all the rest
- lintel repairs, masonry repairs
- complete re render of rear elevation and left gable wall (three storeys)
- Stop movement between annex + main house wall, by fixing damp then repairing masonry
- Asbestos components removal and replacement
- Complete replacement of all gutters and rainwater goods. Must be cast iron
- And some other minor one off repairs like fixing deflection in some floors
- Lift floorboards of all rooms when redecorating to assess joists for dry rot. Expose timber in walls selectively to assess for dry rot.

I understand the sellers would prefer us to carry out repairs.... Would it be unreasonable to ask for 60k + 20k ish for worst case scenario? EA seems to think they'll barely drop 40k

Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 17:05

[Gullwings]

C Lee Farquar said:

Are there any signs of dry rot or just conditions favourable to it?

Dry rot would be very expensive in a listed building that's had significant penetrating damp.

Surveyor said he thinks it's likely to feature dry rot due to the long standing damp issues around the chimneys and front elevation

Little Lofty said:

You definitely need to know if it has dry rot before you buy not after.

But how? Surveys can only guess, unless we expose the innards of the house we'll never know, the owners would never let anyone do that

bennno said:

What’s it worth as is / with work done? Are you willing to have work done whilst owing it. Some of that work will take 6 months to get conservation officer approvals.

Not sure there aren't a lot of houses like it. We offered on it on the assumption it was in great condition.

LooneyTunes said:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but does your builder/roofer actually know what he’s talking about/are you sure he’s not bending you over?

For example, is the movement between walls recent/ongoing? (Lots of old places move during their life, foundations weren’t always used/sufficient, but often the movement seen can be decades old)
Why is he saying that gutters etc need to be replaced with cast iron? (Were there unauthorised changes from cast to plastic?)
And fixing deflection in floors... you should see some of mine!
Things like masonry/window repairs are an ongoing thing. Easy to over-restore... and spoil a property in the process.

The list of jobs is long and contains lots of invasive stuff so not surprised the vendor is saying they’re for you to do if you want them done.

The surveyor flagged up all these issues, the builder just confirmed them.

I think without monitoring over months it's impossible to tell how old movement is, but it's assumed due to the levels of damp it's recent-ish.
Gutters are in poor condition, some plastic so non listed.


I agree with most on here, I think I'm getting cold feet. It's such a gorgeous house I know they'll sell it without much difficulty to some sucker who doesn't get a survey. It's just difficult to let go of the dream house

Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 22:14

[Gullwings]

Thanks all for the advice and insight. It's useful to hear these accounts from people who own listed buildings/experience in property and I've noted down a lot of advice.

This week I'll talk with the surveyor, perhaps get a dry rot specialist to come and assess, and chat with the conservation officer to see if she actually approved some of the additions to the house - esp plastic guttering and UPVC windows.

I agree with the fact it's a buyer's market, so if the vendors won't play ball I'm prepared to walk away.

[Gullwings]

ClaphamGT3 said:

As a chartered building surveyor of nearly 30 years practice who has done a lot of historic/conservation work and owned a number of listed buildings, you need to treat historic buildings as you would treat a classic car; compared to a new build, an older property won't be as efficient, it won't be as cheap to run and it will give more problems than a modern one.

You also need to accept that all but the simplest work to an older property is a voyage of discovery - you just won't know what you're going to find until you open stuff up.

Finally - and this concerns me reading your opening post, you need to remember that historic buildings are organic systems - do one thing and it may have a consequence elsewhere - dpcs, upgraded windows and insulation, introduction of modern, rigid structural elements can all gravely upset the balance of an historic building

I understand, the high maintenance and regular heartbreaks are a small price to pay for the privilege of living in some listed properties.

When you say it's a voyage of discovery, would it be wise to try and expose all the innards over 5 years or so, or just when things need repair/renovations ?

Would your last point be best discussed with a structural engineer?

That was a very insightful post thank you

[Gullwings]

Vanity Projects said:

By way of example - I've dug out my full surveyors report from pre-purchase and here's a snapshot of what I did and when.

Survey was August 2011...Note the presence of words such as May, Could be, potentially, etc.

---

Our Survey Says...	Cost Bracket	Urgency	Our Owner Did...	Date Done	Actual Cost
Knackered DPC	£1000	Do Now	No DPC, traced leaking downpipes saturating underground and broken drains	+1 Month	DIY / £200
Chimney Pisses water in	£1000	Do Now	Got chimney capped/pointed	+ 1 Month	£800
Bees Nest in loft	<£1000	Do Now	Left it alone	Never	£0
Asbestos Roof panels chucked down side of garage	<£1000	Do Now	Left it alone	Never	£0
Rebuild brick outbuilding, include for new floor, walls, roof, door and doorframe.	<£1000	Not Urgent	It fell down	Never	£0
Woodworm! Everywhere, omg - well holes, anyway	£1000-£4000	Urgent	^^ Fixed damp, dried out, lifted floor, hoovered up, sprayed treatments	+1 Month	DIY - £100
More than 5 years since installation last tested, obvious dodgy wiring - plugs in en-suite, etc. - Inspect and correct	£4000+	Urgent	Paid for a test, DIY fixed list of most issues, paid for second test and new consumer unit	+2 Month	£800
Arrange for quotation to: Install specialist tanking to prevent ongoing penetrating damp to cellar walls and floor.	£4000+	Urgent	did some reading, dug out the blocked up cellar vents and let the building breathe instead of tanking.	+2 Month	DIY - £20
Remove rotten door and window frames. Repair/replace corroded metal bars and grill to cellar windows.	<£1000	Urgent	Cut out the rotten bit of door frame, still half a doorframe there to this day - so what?	+2 Month	DIY £0
Arrange for quotation to: Repair joint to front section of gutter - Refix PVC gutter to rear corner of roof	<£1000	Urgent	Grew balls, bought ladder, fixed gutter, did small poo in pants	+2 Month	DIY £100
Replace rotten timber gutter	<£1000	Urgent	Grew brain, paid a man to go dick about on his own ladders	+2 Month	£300
Arrang for quotation to repair/repoint extensive pointing/plant damage and spalled brickwork	£1000=£4000	Not Urgent	Paid for work	+5 years	£3000
Provide belcast bead, repair/renew cracked and missing render to right hand side elevation.	<£1000	Do Now	Finally got round to knocking it off the list during lockdown	+9 Years	DIY - SDS drill and some lime & sand to repoint £50
Arrange for quotation to: Carry out minor repairs for developing decay to sliding sash windows.	<£1000	Do Now	Tarted up DIY but developing decay was actually extensive - Windows all repaired/renovated	+5 Years	£4500
Arrange for quotation to: fix cracked glass above front door	<£1000	Do Now	Sellotape	+1 Month	<£1
Arrange for quotation to: Renew missing and rotten sections of soffit and purlin. Renew rotten bargeboard to rear	£1000-£4000	Do Now	Paid people	+1 Month	£3500

Plus lots of other stuff.

On the surveyors estimates it totalled about £85,000 of stuff in 2011 prices but tbh a lot of that was redecoration costs, and wide margin of error stuff like rewires but nothing brings the cost down like doing it yourself in general. If you get invested in the property, you'll want to do things yourself to get it 'right' for the house and your skills will develpo over time.

Hopefully the above snippet gives you some idea and hope.

Blimey this is absolute gold. I've started up a table with the same headings and will work with the surveyor to categorise items in terms of urgency. It makes the whole process much easier to digest instead of one big tsunami of information!!

Do you have any building experience? This is my second house and my experience thus far includes changing a light bulb and tightening up a toilet... And assembling garden furniture

[Gullwings]

wombat172a said:

This is a relief to read! We're just going through the purchase of a Grade B Scottish property, and should be completing this month. We had a similar experience with the surveyors report being very pessimistic, before getting a specialist to nose around.

Also, as recommended further up this thread there are a couple of good books to get hold of (I hope!)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0857332848/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0711227721/

Which offers sensible ideas to damp and infestation problems that normally scare surveyors.

Also, if there's concern around cracking/movement then I'd start by putting a cheap crack gauge in place and taking a measurement every 2-3 months for a year before panicking.

Good luck!! And thanks for the recommendations

These rumours of a stamp duty holiday materialise, it will be a heaven sent gift in my situation. I would save around 13k which can be immediately used on repairs if required.... We'll see

[Gullwings]

So our vendor has come back with their own survey which estimates repair costs of £12,000 (vs our ~£60k), and a builders quote of £4000 for essential works (vs our £49,000)

Quite shocking really how two surveys could be polar opposites. After a long few months we hope to conclude negotiations this week, thanks all for your help on this thread

[Gullwings]

Yes the builder will honour the work at the quote price.. Just need to confirm that it covers everything we need to the right standard.

Haha we'll see about the resto thread. Probably the thread of how I tragically sawed off a finger trying to do DIY.