Boiler/piping woes

[Mopey]

Hi everyone, feels like one of those things that may be impossible to get help on the forum with but worth a go.
House: semi detached, Edwardian- around 16 rads on three floors.
Boiler is a Baxi combi boiler and since Thursday has been throwing E119. Low pressure. I refill twice a day and error comes back again.
Have had plumbing company out twice now. First time they serviced - let it settle, the air thing needed re doing- e119 the next morning.
Had a guy out today same company who checked the overflow stuff (I had put a bucket underneath over the weekend) no water in it.
So he says must be the pipes. Has taken one of the rads off the system in our front room that we can’t see any water damage or check pipes (under the flooring) and they are not accessible without destroying the flooring!
Most other places are either visible or above other rooms where we would see a leak through the ceiling?

My questions are; how much water are we talking about leaking? is is it possible it’s the boiler not the pipes? Basically I don’t know if we can afford to be ripping up the whole place finding a pipe and then discover it’s the boiler, But the engineer almost ruled out the boiler.

Feeling a bit of a loss with it and it feels totally out of our control! Can get heat but having to keep refilling- so the water is going somewhere.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Or other things I can suggest?
Do national companies when they replace boilers fix editing pipe works too so could solve our problem?

Insurance seems to suggest we are covered for damage finding a leak but not the leak itself.
Thanks in advance.

[Mopey]

Brinyan said:

Is it a condensing boiler? I had a system loosing pressure, with no evidence - no damp patches, no suspect rads or valves, no water from PRV. Ended up cutting condensate pipe, put bucket beneath, ensured boiler wasn’t run & overnight water came out of condensate pipe confirming that the heat exchanger was leaking.

Yes I think so. Think this is the next step. Even after isolating the potential rad pressure has dropped again... it’s just going without heating for a couple of days is not ideal...

[Mopey]

andySC said:

If the boiler is a Baxi Duo-Tec or similar close off the outermost of the 2 isolating valves underneath the boiler. I’d then turn off the power on the boiler & leave sat overnight. If the pressure drops with the valves turned off then the leak is on the boiler, as mentioned it’ll likely be the heat exchanger that has failed. If in the morning the pressure hasn’t altered open up the isolation valves, if the pressure drops straightaway the problem is on the system pipework.

Is this a DIY thing or need an engineer thing?
I have done the valves for refilling the boiler. I just wouldn’t want to make it worse.
It is indeed a baxi duo tec 28 I believe.

Thankyou.

[Mopey]

Thanks. Then switch off the boiler. Do I need to place a bucket somewhere or simply watch the pressure overnight.
Will try this evening I think.

[Mopey]

Okay have tried and one of the plastic valves simply won’t turn! Is it safe to really go at it. Would hate to somehow flood the house!

[Mopey]

Okay further update have taken the plastic cover off to get at the valve.
The valve on the right hand side so the heating return only turns clockwise even though the indicators appear to be for it to turn anti clockwise. This includes the plastic cover that was on it which would make it impossible to turn...
The left hand side one turns fine...
not sure if I should continue or just call someone out.

Edited by Mopey on Tuesday 23 February 11:45

[Mopey]

Mr Pointy said:

Mopey said:

Okay have tried and one of the plastic valves simply won’t turn! Is it safe to really go at it. Would hate to somehow flood the house!

Are you turning it the right way? It might not be the same way as the other one. You'll probably only break the plastic handle if it's really stuck. Maybe turn the heating on for a bit & see if the heat loosens it up, or give it a blast with a hot air gun/hair dryer.

Thanks pointy. We were posting at the same time- does what I’ve written above make sense?

[Mopey]

Mr Pointy said:

Mopey said:

Mr Pointy said:

Mopey said:

Okay have tried and one of the plastic valves simply won’t turn! Is it safe to really go at it. Would hate to somehow flood the house!

Are you turning it the right way? It might not be the same way as the other one. You'll probably only break the plastic handle if it's really stuck. Maybe turn the heating on for a bit & see if the heat loosens it up, or give it a blast with a hot air gun/hair dryer.

Thanks pointy. We were posting at the same time- does what I’ve written above make sense?

Any chance of posting a couple of good pictures so we can see? The valves usually have a black plastic handle with a step in the base which means they only turn 90 degrees in one directon & back. They can be very stiff though - I have to use pair of pliers on mine sometimes.

Hi yes I will post a couple of pictures. That seems to be the problem. The way that the valve actually turns is the opposite way to which the plastic handle will allow because of the way it’s been made!

[Mopey]

Okay photos.
This is the one on the right hand side.
You can see that it wants me to turn it clockwise to switch it on. When off the valve only goes anti clockwise. There is zero way of putting the plastic on and turning anti clockwise. Which is why I’m a bit stumped.


Photo of all the taps for wider view.




So is it safe to say half turn anti clockwise and the logic would be that is then off... as it’s been heating the house when there is water in the system the problem is the pressure dropping.

[Mopey]

Okay. It’s impossible to turn it with the plastic on so I will do it with pliers on the valve itself tonight and see if that makes a change.
If pressure still drops it’s 100% the boiler.

Does it matter if my thermostat still calls for heat do I need to switch that off also?

And I’m assuming I pressurise before turning these two taps.

[Mopey]

andySC said:

Mopey said:

Okay photos.
This is the one on the right hand side.
You can see that it wants me to turn it clockwise to switch it on. When off the valve only goes anti clockwise. There is zero way of putting the plastic on and turning anti clockwise. Which is why I’m a bit stumped.


Photo of all the taps for wider view.




So is it safe to say half turn anti clockwise and the logic would be that is then off... as it’s been heating the house when there is water in the system the problem is the pressure dropping.

These valves turn 90 degrees. As they are shown in the pictures they’re in an open position (on). Turn them clockwise so that the black handle is “sideways” on as you look at it from the front. This is the closed position (off). Both valves will turn on/off in the same direction.

Hi Andy that’s the problem. The right one doesn’t. If you look at the picture the way the plastic fits it looks like it should go anti clockwise but nothing will turn it. That’s why we’re a bit stumped.
It looks like it should turn anti clockwise but it won’t go that way. However when the plastic is off the valve does turn the other way?

Edited by Mopey on Tuesday 23 February 14:17

[Mopey]

Think I’ve confused myself.
The valve wants me to turn it to the right so anti clockwise.

Yet it won’t go. (Il try again with pliers)

Yet when you take the plastic off the valve itself will turn clockwise. Right right to left on the picture. Is that going to put it into an off position no matter which way it turns as long as it’s 90degrees.

[Mopey]

andySC said:

Mopey said:

Think I’ve confused myself.
The valve wants me to turn it to the right so anti clockwise.

Yet it won’t go. (Il try again with pliers)

Yet when you take the plastic off the valve itself will turn clockwise. Right right to left on the picture. Is that going to put it into an off position no matter which way it turns as long as it’s 90degrees.

Anticlockwise indeed...yep, turn to right to close the valve. Ensure system is pressurised before you do it. 90 degrees in either orientation from where it is now will close the valve. Power off at the LHS selector & see where you are in the morning.

Thankyou both for your advice- I will report back in the morning! Not sure either Is a cheap solution but the problem being the boiler is less messy than tearing up floorboards.

[Mopey]

Okay have closed the valves. Couldn’t turn it anti clockwise on the right hand valve so had to go clockwise 90 degrees. Have then reattached the plastic so I can see it’s closed.

Will keep an eye on the pressure even before bed as it’s been dropping fairly quickly.

Where will the water leak too? Through the condensate pipe? Will that happen even with the boiler off?

All switched off.

[Mopey]

Here is the condensate pipe covered by a bread bag to catch any water. I’m assuming it should be empty in the morning if the boiler is fine!


And yes Aldi whole meal...

[Mopey]

andySC said:

Mopey said:

Okay have closed the valves. Couldn’t turn it anti clockwise on the right hand valve so had to go clockwise 90 degrees. Have then reattached the plastic so I can see it’s closed.

Will keep an eye on the pressure even before bed as it’s been dropping fairly quickly.

Where will the water leak too? Through the condensate pipe? Will that happen even with the boiler off?

All switched off.

If the heat exchanger has failed there will be water dripping constantly from the condensate pipe with the boiler off/isolated. Gauge will also drop. Baxi offer a fixed price repair service so if the heat-ex is the culprit this would be worth looking at. It’d be the cheapest option as the part would be more than Baxi would charge for the complete repair.

That’s good to know as if it’s expensive was considering changing the boiler. It’s not in warranty or anything if that matters for these things.

[Mopey]

Morning, okay so the boiler had dropped from the top of 1 to about midway on 1 overnight. But no crashing right down as you would expect on previous days. Then this is what happened as I’m a bit confused as to what it means.

The valves were still closed and I turned the boiler on, as soon as I did this it dropped massively instantly before the return or the other were on. Didn’t drop to e119 but close to 0.
Then I turned the valves on re pressurised and within about a minute even on that the pressure had dropped mid way to 1. Here are some photos of the levels.

Photo 1- after all night being off. Some drop but not substantial.


Photo 2- with the boiler on but no valves changed.


So does this mean I 100% have a leak on the radiators and pipes somewhere?

Thanks

[Mopey]

TCruise said:

Checked your Aldi bag?

Yeah it was wet so had some in there I think but not full of water or anything. So not sure it’s that.
Edited to add. I took the bag off before firing the boiler on which may have been a mistake- as I don’t know where all that water dumped when it switched on. It was weird watching it suddenly drop as soon as it switched on.

Edited by Mopey on Wednesday 24th February 08:31

Edited by Mopey on Wednesday 24th February 11:22

[Mopey]

Totally stumped at the next step now. I have home insurance with trace and access- anyone done that kind of thing on insurance before.

[Mopey]

Thanks pointy.
I think that’s probAbly beyond me.

If I try again overnight tonight and isolate the boiler and say keep the boiler on instead of turning off will that prove it’s the boiler?
I turned the valves albeit one went clockwise instead of anti clockwise.
It held relatively speaking but as soon as it went on it dropped but nothing was calling for heat or anything but from what was said earlier indicated it’s the pipes?