Neighbour and retaining garden wall

[eltax91]

Hi guys

Bit of a long one so bail out now if you’re not sure about the TLDR.

My mother in law lives in a bungalow. Next door is another bungalow. These two bungalows border a row of houses that are some 100m or so away at the other end of their gardens. These two bungalows have a retaining wall across their boundaries which is the whole width of the other house’s garden, holding back about 5ft ish of height change. Mother in law has been in the property since 1999 with no issues.

If it matters, the row of houses were built in the mid fifties and the bungalows at the back in 1962.

One particular house changed owners about 2 years ago and soon after moving in, they ripped out a bunch of bushes at the bottom of their garden, which were along the boundary wall, covering it.

Fast forward to now and the owner of this house has decided that the wall is dangerous. Could fall over at any minute. And have gone and got themselves a quote to fix it. Of course mr builder also thinks the wall needs replacing ASAP. They have sent a copy of the quote, it reads:

Remove existing ‘leaning’ wall
Dig new foundations
Build replacement wall from hollow blocks
Reinforce with steel rebar and infill with concrete
Backfill with 20mm gravel and install land drain
Build to 2ft higher than existing wall
Buold new decorative brick facade in front of concrete
Use decorative concrete cappings

£9950

A picture of the wall in question. Apologies for the poor quality but it’s the best I can do without trespassing on neighbours land.





The house who has got the quote has offered to pay 1/3 of the bill. Requesting 1/3 from the two bungalows. The justification here is that they are prepared to contribute because they wish for the facade and cappings to look nice and not be simple block work.

For what it’s worth Access is required over mother in laws driveway to build this. The other properties don’t have access for the equipment.

I guess my first question is, normally with retaining walls the person who’s land is retained is responsible? Given the older houses were built a decade before the bungalows, is it possible that they are responsible and somebody is playing games?

Mother in law has no idea where her deeds are. She’s calling the solicitor tmr hoping they have a copy so we can be 100% sure of boundary responsibility.

Second question, the wall looks fine to me! st pictures but anyone comment?

Third question, my mother in law is potless. Owns the house but is a class assistant on minimum wage, about to become a pensioner next year. This money is coming out of my pocket not hers. So, given she’s hard up, what if she just says no and leaves it? Any redress for the neighbour to force her?

Edited by eltax91 on Thursday 4th March 21:13

[eltax91]

CoolHands said:

Firstly there’s no rush so make them wait until you’ve checked out whatever you want. Secondly that she’d is on the poss. Thirdly if they want to change it tell them they’re welcome to if they pay for the hole thing! But make sure you agree what the size and look of it or you’ll come back to a 6ft concrete block wall!

I am not a lawyer

Beauty here is that mother in law lives on the right of this fence. On top of you like. She can’t see the wall at all, unless you lean/ climb over the hedge

[eltax91]

Thanks all. To be clear, the two bungalows are to the right of the picture. Behind the elevated fences. The length of the wall is about 50/50 split between two bungalows.

House who removed the trees is to the left. Owns the shed at the bottom on the garden. Removed trees which exposed the ‘ugly’ wall.

They site some cracking and mortar breakup of the 60+ years old wall and some bulging as the reason why the wall needs doing.

I was trying to tell my other in law earlier that the access to replace is fine, but the cost is £3333.

[eltax91]

Thanks chaps. Trying to visualise this for you.

Mother in law = yellow
Other bungalow = purple
House that is 5ft lower and asking for wall = green
Wall in question = red



Mother in Le doesn’t know what the actual boundary is. But she ‘thinks’ she remembers it’s the wall. The wall runs her entire boundary, albeit through changes of angle, bordering lots of other gardens

[eltax91]

01WE01 said:

Does this mean that same wall carries on off to the left of the bit in question, along the yellow line to behind the far left shed of the neigbour?

Yes. Sort of. Where red meets yellow, there’s a 45 degree angle and the wall ‘starts again’ of that makes sense?

[eltax91]

Dromedary66 said:

I wouldn't be paying for that wall. Preposterous.

If you're worried maybe worth spending £3 for the title plan, although they don't always have the boundary owners marked.

She’s got a copy of the land registry title. Just a red line on an extremely zoomed out scale. No way to know if the boundary is the fence or the wall (mother in law believes from 22 years ago remembering it’s the wall) and no ‘T’ markings on the document.

Solicitors being contacted first thing to see if they have the original documents

[eltax91]

Hi folks

Mother in law gave solicitor permission to speak with me about her affairs. I have spoken to them and they are saying the destroy all records after 10 years, the last time they didn;t anything was 12 years ago to put the property into mother in laws name after her marriage breakdown.

I have paid for the Title deed from the land registry, this shows a pink line all around the property and no "T" markings.

Is there anything else i can do to establish ownership? Assuming no "T" markings on anyone's documents, presume at this point it's a shared boundary and no responsibility either way?

[eltax91]

bennno said:

eltax91 said:

Hi folks

Mother in law gave solicitor permission to speak with me about her affairs. I have spoken to them and they are saying the destroy all records after 10 years, the last time they didn;t anything was 12 years ago to put the property into mother in laws name after her marriage breakdown.

I have paid for the Title deed from the land registry, this shows a pink line all around the property and no "T" markings.

Is there anything else i can do to establish ownership? Assuming no "T" markings on anyone's documents, presume at this point it's a shared boundary and no responsibility either way?

Get a full copy of the deeds / transfer deeds - ask the solicitor for guidance.

They are ‘checking their archive’ now. I suspect they are going to come back to tell me that they have been destroyed as more than 10 years.

Is there any way to get them from elsewhere if they have been destroyed

[eltax91]

Total loss said:

Ask the other bungalow owner & the people wanting the wall rebuilt what it says on their deeds?

Thanks. That's on the hit list. The other bungalow is currently going through a sale, the owners moved into a care home, new owners are not in yet, mother in law has not met them.

We just discovered in the last 20 minutes, the house wanting wall rebuilt is saying they've spoken to new owners who are in agreement that it needs rebuilding and have apparently negotiated "an amount" with their seller to cover their share of the wall rebuild.

This is coming in polite but firm emails from the owner wanting the wall done. They have left MiL 7 missed calls this morning (she's a class assistant, no phone other than break times) and trying to make it seem urgent that this needs to be done asap in order for new bungalow owner to claim their monies (not my porblem, and probably BS)

[eltax91]

pquinn said:

Really?? They can get the materials & equipment in via their own side access, which has the advantage of actually being at the right level.

Price seems steep too (to me at least) for a short wall little retaining wall, rebarred hollow block + concrete + a skin is hardly a complicated job.

And what are they proposing to do at the boundary of their little run of the wall? Just stop their shiny new bit? Unless there's a convenient joint at each fenceline (which I doubt) then they aren't exactly helping the rest of it stay upright.

The builder has suggested steel re-enforcement in the form
Of rods inserted and concrete infill. The main reason for access is they say pumping concrete all the way up the garden isn’t possible, it’s too far.

Price wise they did have other quotes that were more expensive, which We’ve not yet seen.

I think I foresee a chat over the garden wall (literally) myself with these people. Let them know my thoughts on them bullying an old lady out of what little money she might have left.

[eltax91]

Thanks all. The plot thickens a little. I decided to spring the £6 to buy each of the land registry titles. Here's a snipped from theirs. With a suitable covenent?

I have them bang to right here don't i? If i am correct as i think i am, i shall be asking them tomorrow why, after purchasing in 2018 and for sure will have seen the plans, they decided to try and mug off two old ladies. I will also raise the subject of how much they'd like to pay us for access to rebuild this dangerous wall.

As a side note, further chat with morhter in law suggest they cut down 2 large oak trees as well as some bushes! So this certainly will have undermined the walls construction by removing the roots and of course leaving all that water no longer being sucked up by the trees.

[eltax91]

Dixy said:

The plan does not have a T but if that is the southern boundary then bingo.

There’s a marker on the map showing north. I tried to show it in the picture. Number 160 is SSW facing

[eltax91]

PAUL500 said:

It does not say the wall is theirs, just that the original builder of the houses had to build a fence along that boundary. That boundary may well be a few inches into their land in front of the later built wall.

So what does ‘forthwith and forever thereafter’ mean if not maintain this boundary?

[eltax91]

Ayahuasca said:

Their wall, their problem, and what’s wrong with access through their own land? They just carry the bricks, sand and cement through their own garden.

The builders claim was that they wouldn’t be able to find a concrete pump with a pipe long enough. Time for them to get mixing on site I reckon.

I can’t remember the latest stage of work, but they are just embarking on a large extension which I think is filling the side
of their property to The boundary and thus I’m not sure they could get a digger down.

[eltax91]

valiant said:

Ha!

If it definitely is their wall then get your MiL to push to get it rebuilt. After all, it is soooooooo dangerous.

I’ll be letting them give me, as the newcomer the whole chapter and verse about why it needs rebuilding before I hand them a copy of their deeds I reckon

[eltax91]

21TonyK said:

Have we established if the wall in question is actually on the boundary or within M-I-Ls' original property?

I’d love to, but how? She has fencing all around her house that sits inside the wall. I’ve genuinely no idea to establish what her original boundary is/ was. I have no paperwork to go on other than the publicly available ones.

Please tell me how to prove it, one way or another. If she doesn’t own it, the stance is ‘good luck, not my problem’.

If she does, the stance is ‘wall looks fine to me. I’d like to see the structural engineers report that you had done before you chopped the trees down and potentially affected the wall structure and the one you’ve had done now to prove it’s actually now unstable, but good luck, not my problem’

[eltax91]

hidetheelephants said:

eltax91 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Their wall, their problem, and what’s wrong with access through their own land? They just carry the bricks, sand and cement through their own garden.

The builders claim was that they wouldn’t be able to find a concrete pump with a pipe long enough. Time for them to get mixing on site I reckon.

I can’t remember the latest stage of work, but they are just embarking on a large extension which I think is filling the side
of their property to The boundary and thus I’m not sure they could get a digger down.

What are they doing that requires a concrete pump? It's a bloody retaining wall, not Hitler's bunker. All the gear and no idea.

The quote they have gotten themselves into. Which is the ‘only proper solution’ according to them. Is the dog out a foundation, build a concrete hollow block wall, with rebar inside and then fill with concrete. Hence the pump.

I would saw front to back of their house is over 100m. And gradually uphill. But ultimately yes, just don’t fancy the cost I imagine.

I shan’t be having them using the access unless there’s a suitable recompense in place to help us make Good after the damage that will no doubt be caused

[eltax91]

hidetheelephants said:

eltax91 said:

As a side note, further chat with morhter in law suggest they cut down 2 large oak trees as well as some bushes! So this certainly will have undermined the walls construction by removing the roots and of course leaving all that water no longer being sucked up by the trees.

Unless they literally dug the roots out this won't undermine the wall, but the heave potentially caused due to the water not being taken up by the trees may have caused movement and consequently damage to the wall; how long ago were the trees cut down and what's the ground like? London clay and similar is really bad for heave when trees are removed.

Trees were taken out not long after they moved in. So summer 2019. Summer 2020 they painted the bricks to make them look better. Presumably this didn’t help with water retention either

[eltax91]

Jeremy-75qq8 said:

Still not sure why you have not looked at the plans on the planning site. Free and will give you a load of information.

Where do I look? And what at? When Inuit their post code in on the planning portal all I get is the application for their extension that they recently had granted.

The district is hinckley and bosworth of that matters.

[eltax91]

Drawweight said:

eltax91 said:

Jeremy-75qq8 said:

Still not sure why you have not looked at the plans on the planning site. Free and will give you a load of information.

Where do I look? And what at? When Inuit their post code in on the planning portal all I get is the application for their extension that they recently had granted.

The district is hinckley and bosworth of that matters.

I had a quick look.

The original application to build is pre1972 which from what I read is the cut off point for searching.

The current work they are having done doesn’t show boundaries.

Even the last sales brochure is no help.

Maybe try contacting the planning department. Even though it doesn’t look possible they may have records somewhere.

Thanks. I have a meeting with them today to discuss, so no opportunity to contact planning before I assess their reaction. I intend to tell them we aren’t interested in paying based on what’s in their title deeds and go from there.