Timber frame houses, walls and membranes?
Discussion
My wife and I are looking at one.
Aside all the noted pros and cons on various websites like www.brand-newhomes.co.uk , I can't seem to find any definitive info on how they work.
From what I can gather from pictures, all the main panels are wrapped up during pre-fab, so moisture proof. Is this like roof felt? Ie, permeable one way? They're then all stuck together on site and made good where they're joined.
So ideally all your timbers are dry, like a roof with felt, from water trying to get at them.
Then when the electricians and plumbers get to work, they make holes everywhere... these are then all sealed. Ie, around sockets (do they just screw them through the felt etc?)
Obviously this is all just the way it is... but the main query is what happens when you want to put shelves up or curtain poles? Are you just breaking your timber frame seal everywhere?
Are you really limited with what you can put on walls, or where you can run ducts etc? Is the plasterboard just really thick to support the loads? Or do you need special screws? Is there a cavity behind plasterboard before membranes?
Is the membrane on internal wall panels, or only external facing panels?
Can you put a loft hatch in and have a boarded out loft with these types of houses?
Cheers
Aside all the noted pros and cons on various websites like www.brand-newhomes.co.uk , I can't seem to find any definitive info on how they work.
From what I can gather from pictures, all the main panels are wrapped up during pre-fab, so moisture proof. Is this like roof felt? Ie, permeable one way? They're then all stuck together on site and made good where they're joined.
So ideally all your timbers are dry, like a roof with felt, from water trying to get at them.
Then when the electricians and plumbers get to work, they make holes everywhere... these are then all sealed. Ie, around sockets (do they just screw them through the felt etc?)
Obviously this is all just the way it is... but the main query is what happens when you want to put shelves up or curtain poles? Are you just breaking your timber frame seal everywhere?
Are you really limited with what you can put on walls, or where you can run ducts etc? Is the plasterboard just really thick to support the loads? Or do you need special screws? Is there a cavity behind plasterboard before membranes?
Is the membrane on internal wall panels, or only external facing panels?
Can you put a loft hatch in and have a boarded out loft with these types of houses?
Cheers
Sorry I didn't specify actually, it's a brand new build.
Brown field site, floodplain soils, piles and reinforced concrete slab in trenches around them (as it currently stands), then masonry about 75cm on top of that to the foot of the timber frame and stone cladding.
No major concerns with the flood plain, they've elevated the site above the flood barrier height, and brown field, the two old ladies who lived next to it all their lives hit 95+ yrs old without malady, so it's actually a very pleasant location.
HACS are contractors on it, it's just a small development.
The area has another development of timber frame houses from the 80s or so I think, they're generally popular and hold their value well, and a few trades people have them and say they're nice to work on.
I know one was fully renovated (all new timbers (upgraded size) and insulation etc) from about £225k > £275k asking, and that was new everything inside, so I didn't think that was too bad if there was £50,000 to re-do the entire house at the most.
The NHBC guarantee is 10yrs, I'm not sure what guarantee the frame might have, but I'd imagine from the 80s ones locally, they'll last at least 40yrs... and a re-furb after 40 years is probably a reasonable expectation even in a masonry house. Likely more costly than a masonry refurb, but you also get all the latest materials capabilities too (energy efficiency, noise, maybe even thickness, etc)
It's interesting looking at the damp control measures. I'd read about 22% for damp point for wood rotting.
Given normal levels of concern and consideration for damp in either a masonry framed (but timber everything else from the roof to floors to stud walls) house, and a timber framed house, I can't see either suffering from any major issues long term unless something is damaged and probably exposed too.
Assuming you buy from new and know it's not had any major issues, and is built ok, then you're good to go and probably shouldn't have to worry about anything more than any other house.
On general house DIY then, it seems like all the panels will be like chip/fibre board type wood, so essentially a solid sheet that can bear loads if you put a fixing anywhere on it?
Ie, if you wanted to put more kitchen wall units up, you'd be able to position them anywhere, and not be looking for a stud or something? This is probably more convenient than a stud and insulation type wall in a conventional build?
Although you wouldn't be able to easily run wiring down between studs to hide it, ie for a wall mounted TV or something?
Brown field site, floodplain soils, piles and reinforced concrete slab in trenches around them (as it currently stands), then masonry about 75cm on top of that to the foot of the timber frame and stone cladding.
No major concerns with the flood plain, they've elevated the site above the flood barrier height, and brown field, the two old ladies who lived next to it all their lives hit 95+ yrs old without malady, so it's actually a very pleasant location.
HACS are contractors on it, it's just a small development.
The area has another development of timber frame houses from the 80s or so I think, they're generally popular and hold their value well, and a few trades people have them and say they're nice to work on.
I know one was fully renovated (all new timbers (upgraded size) and insulation etc) from about £225k > £275k asking, and that was new everything inside, so I didn't think that was too bad if there was £50,000 to re-do the entire house at the most.
The NHBC guarantee is 10yrs, I'm not sure what guarantee the frame might have, but I'd imagine from the 80s ones locally, they'll last at least 40yrs... and a re-furb after 40 years is probably a reasonable expectation even in a masonry house. Likely more costly than a masonry refurb, but you also get all the latest materials capabilities too (energy efficiency, noise, maybe even thickness, etc)
It's interesting looking at the damp control measures. I'd read about 22% for damp point for wood rotting.
Given normal levels of concern and consideration for damp in either a masonry framed (but timber everything else from the roof to floors to stud walls) house, and a timber framed house, I can't see either suffering from any major issues long term unless something is damaged and probably exposed too.
Assuming you buy from new and know it's not had any major issues, and is built ok, then you're good to go and probably shouldn't have to worry about anything more than any other house.
On general house DIY then, it seems like all the panels will be like chip/fibre board type wood, so essentially a solid sheet that can bear loads if you put a fixing anywhere on it?
Ie, if you wanted to put more kitchen wall units up, you'd be able to position them anywhere, and not be looking for a stud or something? This is probably more convenient than a stud and insulation type wall in a conventional build?
Although you wouldn't be able to easily run wiring down between studs to hide it, ie for a wall mounted TV or something?
Thanks for all the info so far.
Yes they sound like they're good, but less flexible than masonry. Definitely more a think ahead type of property, rather than crack on with the SDS masonry bits
Given all the windows are by definition on the outside walls, and will need blinds/curtain rails, they must have considered how they'd be fixed... I assume decent plasterboard fixings won't get through to the damp control elements.
That then makes sense on the line work for the CAD I have found on the planning. The external walls have what looked like an extra line all around on the inside edge. I'd assumed it was skirting board but then it wasn't on the other internal walls. So that must be the thicker insulated plaster board!
As an aside to this, having the CAD at hand it's clear the EA has got the room sizes wrong upstairs by a fair margin. An extra 10-12% floor area than expected which is nice.
Yes they sound like they're good, but less flexible than masonry. Definitely more a think ahead type of property, rather than crack on with the SDS masonry bits
Given all the windows are by definition on the outside walls, and will need blinds/curtain rails, they must have considered how they'd be fixed... I assume decent plasterboard fixings won't get through to the damp control elements.
That then makes sense on the line work for the CAD I have found on the planning. The external walls have what looked like an extra line all around on the inside edge. I'd assumed it was skirting board but then it wasn't on the other internal walls. So that must be the thicker insulated plaster board!
As an aside to this, having the CAD at hand it's clear the EA has got the room sizes wrong upstairs by a fair margin. An extra 10-12% floor area than expected which is nice.
I think ours will almost certainly be pre-fab given there are just 4 units of the 4 bed on the development.
I’ll try get a quick natter with the site manager again.
Yes I’d read about heat. Our current stone built late 19thC terrace, renovated to 2005 building regs is crazy hot though, over-insulated for winter at the cost of summer heat.
I’d read the positive air pressure things can be good where they blow in cool fresh air and run the house at high pressure.
I’ve no idea how they work with timber frame units though.
Also wonder if just full aircon in loft with ducts would be that difficult (bedrooms direct, landing upstairs flow to downstairs?)
I’ll try get a quick natter with the site manager again.
Yes I’d read about heat. Our current stone built late 19thC terrace, renovated to 2005 building regs is crazy hot though, over-insulated for winter at the cost of summer heat.
I’d read the positive air pressure things can be good where they blow in cool fresh air and run the house at high pressure.
I’ve no idea how they work with timber frame units though.
Also wonder if just full aircon in loft with ducts would be that difficult (bedrooms direct, landing upstairs flow to downstairs?)
GSHP units are quite a bit but you can DIY almost all of it.
Then use pros and sign off where required.
I honestly think AC is a better approach for the odd hot days.
If you’re already going eco with gshp you might be using solar etc too, so running AC on the hottest days wouldn’t really be a big cost.
Indeed I can’t imagine UFH running cold water would work so well. It’d have to be sub zero to get the type of temp gradient to take the air temp down sufficiently.
Plus convection would be backwards, so cool air would just sit above floor.
Then use pros and sign off where required.
I honestly think AC is a better approach for the odd hot days.
If you’re already going eco with gshp you might be using solar etc too, so running AC on the hottest days wouldn’t really be a big cost.
Indeed I can’t imagine UFH running cold water would work so well. It’d have to be sub zero to get the type of temp gradient to take the air temp down sufficiently.
Plus convection would be backwards, so cool air would just sit above floor.
Great feedback so far.
I'm curious Snotrag how you used soil pipes to run wiring etc.
I assume the cavity between outer cladding and inner timber structure is exposed at the top of the building out into the loft space?
Thinking ahead to stuff like a satellite dish install then, it's probably best to site this near the eaves, then get the wires up over the top of the cladding, and then across the loft to the wall required, then run down the cavity and into the room at an appropriate location.
Ie, in your case you used a soil stack to run alongside and piggyback through the same hole to access the interior space?
At this point I'm thinking/wondering if utilities for wiring/phone lines/generalised ducting are present early on, and I can just ask for runs of wire around the place with appropriate sockets.
Ie, a bunch of LAN cables and a socket in each room running back to the loft. Then I can just put a switch in the loft, and my server in the loft. I suppose I'd need a loop for power in the loft too.
Hmmm
I'm curious Snotrag how you used soil pipes to run wiring etc.
I assume the cavity between outer cladding and inner timber structure is exposed at the top of the building out into the loft space?
Thinking ahead to stuff like a satellite dish install then, it's probably best to site this near the eaves, then get the wires up over the top of the cladding, and then across the loft to the wall required, then run down the cavity and into the room at an appropriate location.
Ie, in your case you used a soil stack to run alongside and piggyback through the same hole to access the interior space?
At this point I'm thinking/wondering if utilities for wiring/phone lines/generalised ducting are present early on, and I can just ask for runs of wire around the place with appropriate sockets.
Ie, a bunch of LAN cables and a socket in each room running back to the loft. Then I can just put a switch in the loft, and my server in the loft. I suppose I'd need a loop for power in the loft too.
Hmmm
Hmmm not sure mine has anything so convenient.
It appears some "SVP" are on the sides, and the utility and bathroom/en-suite are opposite these, so maybe the soil pipes are off to the sides.
I'll have to see about having LAN cables and face-plates put into each room when it gets to that stage.
I'm currently wondering how/where exactly the wiring goes. Behind each bathroom as it were, there is a cavity clearly present on the plans which must be for the plumbing etc, which lets the pipes get to the sides of the house and the main cavities.
But electrics must run all over... so do they go through the timber panels somehow, or in grooves, or something?
I'll admit it's probably easier to watch one being built to get an idea of it... I'll have to go dig around on YouTube etc and see if there are some good videos of builds in progress!
It appears some "SVP" are on the sides, and the utility and bathroom/en-suite are opposite these, so maybe the soil pipes are off to the sides.
I'll have to see about having LAN cables and face-plates put into each room when it gets to that stage.
I'm currently wondering how/where exactly the wiring goes. Behind each bathroom as it were, there is a cavity clearly present on the plans which must be for the plumbing etc, which lets the pipes get to the sides of the house and the main cavities.
But electrics must run all over... so do they go through the timber panels somehow, or in grooves, or something?
I'll admit it's probably easier to watch one being built to get an idea of it... I'll have to go dig around on YouTube etc and see if there are some good videos of builds in progress!
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