Dog training - shock collars?

[Caractacus]

Hi All,

I was talking with a dog trainer today and she says these are a very good training aid. What's the story, then?

Cheers,

C.

[Caractacus]

Mobile Chicane said:

I'm not a fan of 'gadgets' since I think the problem is that the dog thinks it only needs to behave while wearing the shock collar / halti / anti-bark collar, whatever... and therefore doesn't really learn anything.

Reward-based training is far more effective in my experience, as well as kinder.

What sort of 'reward'? Food? Bad idea, surely, as said pooch thinks at some point "hmm, master ain't got the grub, I can't be bovvered"?

[Caractacus]

Jasandjules said:

Well, would like to be shocked in that way? Would you shock your kids if they did something wrong?

What I get up to in the privacy of my own home is my business...lol.

No kids.

Playing devils advocate here...besides, these are animals, not people. Leccy fences teach cattle, sheep, horses, and dogs where not to go. No?

[Caractacus]

Morningside said:

Call herself a trainer? If thats how she trains a dog then she is totally in the wrong business.

The trouble is with these things is how many times are you going to press it? Once? Twice? Keep it held down?

Dog fails to pick up ball? Shock? Dog fails to fetch ball? Shock?


Should be banned.

From my chat with her it's only used for 'bad' responses, as in a dog that barks far too much out of habit. Of course I firmly believe in praise based training, however one of my dogs barks and barks and barks. I can't seem to get her to stop. The other dog is very quiet in comparison.

Also from my chat with her it sounds like it's an automated collar, so only gives a 'static electricity' type zap when said pooch barks.

[Caractacus]

King Herald said:

You can train dogs???

Wish somebody would tell my mongrel mob that they can be trained.

lol. Yep. Cats, too!

[Caractacus]

Morningside said:

Try sticking your fingers on one and see what its like or wrap it round your wrist. Also dont believe the 'thick fur' excuse as they usually have prongs to touch the skin.

Also some dogs 'yelp' causing the collar to shock again.

At least Wales have some sense.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8584028.stm

Indeed, I'd do that without hesitation. I'd happily put it round my neck to check it out properly. The 'yelp' after the initial 'zap' is a very good point.

[Caractacus]

Jasandjules said:

Caractacus said:

Playing devils advocate here...besides, these are animals, not people.

Which is why they should be treated well....

Or, playing devil's advocate - should we also beat them with a stick if they misbehave? What about skin them alive? After all, they are "only animals".

Now, if you're going to quote, use it all. Don't take it out of context fella.

Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...

[Caractacus]

Jasandjules said:

Caractacus said:

Now, if you're going to quote, use it all. Don't take it out of context fella.

Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...

Firstly, I don't see how a leccy fence is in any way similar to a shock collar so it wasn't out of context to my mind.

I don't use leccy fences for my dogs nor do I think "it's ok" to do so. The farmers I know don't use leccy fences either for various reasons which do not sound nice at all.

Plus, if you want to push it, you can argue that an electric fence is to protect animals rather than simply a punishment.

Well, imho, the leccy chicken mesh around our orchard in which our birds live is for two purposes. 1/to contain the birds and 2/ deter four legged predators. Both our dogs were told many times to stay away from the fence and birds, however both felt the need to investigate...and got a zap on their wet noses. They've not been anywhere near the birds since.

Farmers in this part of Wales use leccy fences. Mainly to strip graze from what I've seen, as well as contain pigs to certain areas.

[Caractacus]

King Herald said:

Caractacus said:

Jasandjules said:

Caractacus said:

Playing devils advocate here...besides, these are animals, not people.

Which is why they should be treated well....

Or, playing devil's advocate - should we also beat them with a stick if they misbehave? What about skin them alive? After all, they are "only animals".

Now, if you're going to quote, use it all. Don't take it out of context fella.

Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...

What about fish, drag them out of the water by a hook through the face......

KH, that's just sick. lol.

But seriously, I am actually against the use of shock collars. I was wanting to gain others well thought out arguments/perspectives on the collars.

[Caractacus]

bigbob77 said:

I tested a shock collar on myself once. It was quite a big one.

On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.

It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I've seen people whack dogs on the nose with rolled up newspapers - I would guess that's twice as painful as the shock collar on full power.

Many moons ago I was an ODP in NZ and I tried the muscle simulator (keep it clean, lol) on full whack on my arm...it was hilarious. My am was all over the place when it was turned right up; I seriously doubt a shock collar would come anywhere near close.

As for whacking on the nose? Never.

[Caractacus]

Rollcage said:

The RSPCA's stance

I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.

I'm not aware of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.

No offence intended, but are you the UK guru of dog training? Therefore if you don't know of something it can't possibly exist? Also, who said I was or the thread was in fact talking of 'working dogs'?

Also, the RSPCA can kiss my arse. They lost all support from me recently (they were in my will to a large extent and also received monthly donations) due to their use of bolt guns to put down GSD's in 2009. Different thread, that.

Edited by Caractacus on Sunday 30th December 11:23

[Caractacus]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

bigbob77 said:

I tested a shock collar on myself once. It was quite a big one.

On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.

It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".

This.

I have one, and can say used to shock less than 10 times in 5 yrs on two dogs.

There are others on here that are the same, however I also know / fear putting my head above the parapet on the subject matter here on PH means this will not end well.

You do all realise too - don't you - that the shock collar has, and relies upon firstly a remote controlled beeper. A signal / sound close to the dog prior to any shock. They also have a button that JUST activates the beep and hence can be used to get the dog 'back in the room' if it takes off or needs a nudge in its attention?

I shan't bother going in to the why and reasons as I have previously on PH and like I say, it becomes silly.
I would challenge anyone to question my love affection and efforts to our dogs.

ETA - to answer the original (trolling) question. No - I do not believe they are for 'Dog Training'

Paddy, it was not and still is not a trolling question. 'Dog Training' is a wide remit, admittedly. My question was more based along the lines of behavior modification. My mistake.

I thank you for putting your own experiences forward though, I really do. I am merely trying to understand both sides of the story, minus the emotion. If you wish to PM me with your reasons as opposed to posting I'd welcome it.

Cheers,

C.

[Caractacus]

kVA said:

rudecherub said:

Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.

And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.

Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?

Electric shock collars are just a marketing opportunity from companies who profit from lazy people who can't be arsed to do the right thing and learn how to look after and train a dog properly, from the start.... As for the chasing sheep and getting shot - if you don't trust your dog not to do this, don't let it off the fking lead anywhere near them!!! FFS (For that matter, don't ever let it off the lead anywhere where it isn't either safely contained, or is at any risk at all of not coming back on command)

I am very liberal with 'entry qualifications' for my agility training classes, but a solid recall is an absolute must - never ever let a dog off a lead anywhere that you are not 100% confident you can control it - would you let a 3 year old child loose on its own in a shopping centre?

You've hit on something there, methinks...

I've never, ever, had a dog 'from the start'. They have all been rescues. Surely some behavioral issues can't be dealt with due to time/funding/resources? What about a dog that chews his/her own tail and makes it bleed? A quick zap when it next goes to bite/chew its own tail would cure that, no?

Also, no disrespect intended whatsoever, but entry level quals for agility hardly makes anyone a guru in the subject.

Also, where does someone go to gain such qualifications? And is there an actual national body that licences or an association that members of training companies can belong to?

[Caractacus]

kVA said:

As for me professing to be a guru, I never said that - I stated that I do not allow people to attend my agility training classes, until they have a recall with their dog: I do not profess to be a 'dog trainer', I am a 'people trainer'. There are many people who do have excellent, hard-won, qualifications in canine behavioural training / correction, but I am not one of them. However, I do have qualifications as a dog agility trainer, thank you - I would not offer my services without them (partly because they are necessary for the appropriate insurance)

What are these? And where can they be obtained from? Who trains the trainers and who are the folk you've referred to?

Is there a national body that regulates all this?

[Caractacus]

kVA said:

Caractacus said:

What are these? And where can they be obtained from? Who trains the trainers and who are the folk you've referred to?

Is there a national body that regulates all this?

Methinks you are trolling, now...

If not, Google is your friend

ETA - Or the Kennel Club...

Edited by kVA on Sunday 30th December 14:31

You can think what you like, and quite obviously do, lol, but they are genuine questions.

[Caractacus]

Thanks for the post P&M

When I originally started the thread I was of the opinion that there was no place for the shock collar in any situation. Period.

I'm now more open minded about the whole topic now though. I've also talked with a dog trainer who's said she gets problem dogs when other trainers fail to correct certain behavior. She does use such a collar, but only when all else has failed. And that is exceptionally rare. She's not in Wales though.

[Caractacus]

JumboBeef said:

I rehome dogs (we are a recognised KC rehomer).

Shock collars are vile, and are thankfully illegal in Wales. Hopefully they will be illegal across the whole of the UK one day.

You train an animal by rewarding when things go well, and not by inflicting pain when they don't.

Any "trainer" who has to use one of these things is not a real trainer at all, just some idiot who doesn't know how to train a dog.

Hi Jumbo,

The KC are definitely not the be all and end all, to a large extent. They have their detractors, too. On a tangent, is it not the KC & their 'standards' that have created some horrendous breeding regimes and breeds that are a shadow of their former selves, all from 'selective breeding'. This dog MUST look like 'this' or 'that' is stupid. The KC is rife with snobbery, too.

So the KC can kiss my rear end, as can the RSPCA (for reasons mentioned prior).

As I've also said prior, I was entirely against the collars, but I can now see where they fit it. To dismiss them point blank, to me, seems arrogant and potentially fatal for some dogs with certain nasty behavior (that may see them put down).

Your comment in bold is ignorant in its entirety. Are you a dog trainer? Or do you rehome only (which is great, btw) ?

I understand this is an issue that raises the blood pressure and creates a knee jerk reaction from many (as it did for me initially) however it's not logically possible to say that every single type of dog and its potentially dangerous behavior can be trained out - purely with treats and praise.

As I'm sure you've experienced in your rehoming, you want to rehome more, to good homes, and more quickly (in an ideal world). How much time do you put into training out bad habits, to the detriment of taking in more pooches and therefore rehoming more? Do you keep some 'bad' dogs for months in your kennels; taking up valuable space? Or would you rather have those dogs retrained quickly with the correct use of such a collar. Potentially you could be saving more dogs from the RSPCA/Pound etc (or seeing as you're KC approved, do I assume you only rehome/take in posh doggies??).

Cheers,

C.

Edited by Caractacus on Monday 31st December 13:58

[Caractacus]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Thanks for the Judgement JumboBeef.
You don't know me, my dogs my local areas of walks.
If you think I am cruel bd so be it .

I would rather my dogs ran free and had a whale of a time 99% of all walks thank on a leash unnecessarily.

Op, this is the venom posting that make me want to stay away from the discussions.

Bye

Apologies, P&M. I understand completely.

I'd rather my dogs were able to exhibit natural behavior as much as possible, which of course means off the leash. After all, having a dog on a chain/leash 100% of the time is cruel in itself.

[Caractacus]

JumboBeef said:

The Kennel Club's Electric Shock Collar Campaign

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557

The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.

Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...

Let me get this bit right...and please do correct me if I am wrong.

Dogs are pack animals. Dogs have an order when in a pack. This order is created by the leader of the pack treating the others with love, affection, treats and cuddles. This puts said dog on top of the pack and it's rarely challenged. If another dog dares to challenge the pack leader it's put in its place by love, affection, treats and words of encouragement. Dogs, when in a pack environment have a natural willingness to obey. They never, ever challenge the pack leader.

Pack leaders never growl, intimidate, nip, bite, scrap with challengers. After seeing a few hunting packs, I was astounded...go figure. It seems I may be wrong in my assumptions.

The pack leader will put others in place with fear & violence if necessary. My god, dogs are such animals!

[Caractacus]

JumboBeef said:

Dogs understand other dogs nipping and biting. They don't understand something around their neck which causes them pain.

You speak 'dog'?

I've been reading about dog training and shock collars all day...the single largest fault/issue with these (say the professionals) is their misuse. Misuse by people who do not think about the other factors when they employ such a collar.

Also, I will not be using any shock collars on my dogs. As my OP says, I was talking with a trainer who said they were a good training aid (for certain types of bad behavior). She brought up the use of the collars as I was asking about one particular problem dog she had, to which she replied with "sorted out via shock collar and now 100% rehomeable" (the dog was dumped on their doorstep (well, it was sent to them via an animal courier, one way!) as the owners couldn't cope, despite other trainers doing their best).

Personally, I'm no longer suffering from 'knee jerk' emotional reactions wrt the use of shock collars. What I will be doing is trying one around my own neck tho (not my ball sack as someone else has suggested, lol).

Hell, I'll even record it and pop it up on youtube