What dog thread: Labrador, retriever or something else?

[Chris71]

After years of wanting to get a dog, it looks like we will soon be in a position to do it. So ... what should we get?

We're looking for a large or medium-sized dog. We've got a five-year old, so it needs something that's going to be good with kids. Both grownups in the house work full-time, but we work flexible hours from home and live in the middle of nowhere, so exercise demands aren't a major problem. That said, it would be handy if it was a breed that could curl up for a bit in between walks rather than needing constant stimulation. We'd prefer a reasonably robust breed without too many hereditary issues.

I think we're leaning towards a Labrador or possibly a flat coat. Does anyone know how they compare?

Assuming we went for a Lab, are there any differences in health or temperament between the various types? Anything to choose between black, gold and chocolate? Long or short-legged? Girl or boy?

Any other breeds we should be checking out?

Any advice appreciated.

[Chris71]

rustyuk said:

The choice might be dictated by what puppies are available at the moment. Prices and availability in the last three months has gone mental.

Good point. We're not in any great hurry. The plan was really to get something next year, but with lockdown and me suddenly having a lot less work for the foreseeable future we wondered about bringing it forward. If we knew someone who was about to have a litter or something that might swing us ... even if it was a different breed or something.

I've already got a bit of experience with both breeds, having grown up with a flat coat, while my parents currently have a Lab. That said, I've never been the sole person in charge of either (and the flat coat is going back 30-odd years now!) I would absolutely love a flat coat, but it does sound like a Lab might be that little bit easier as a first-time owner.

Any thoughts on different types of Labs? Do the lighter ones fare better in the heat, for instance?

[Chris71]

loskie said:

In all honesty if you just want a pet just go for a crossbreed, they are far less prone to health issues caused by over and in breeding.

11 years ago I went for a lab x springer from a local gamekeeper (the litter of pups was a mistake) she cost me all of £150.

She's still fighting fit and touch wood so far there have been no health issues.


Sad thing is folks are now stupidly in my opinion calling them "springadors" ( I hate these stupid names!!) and they cost £600.

Labs get fat easily and suffer from hip problems, how about a Vizla if you want a purebred?
This is my dog

Funnily enough, two of the farms round here have lab x springers and they are both lovely dogs. My only slight hesitation is that you might not know entirely what you're getting. A friend of mine used to have a Alsatian x collie and that dog was lethal - the skittishness of a collie and the aggression of an Alsatian.

If we could get a Heinz 57 from a suitable home we'd definitely be up for it. My parents' jack russell is in season currently and they think she might have been getting it on with the basset hound nextdoor. Unfortunately, due to her age they're taking her down to the vets for a doggie morning after pill rather than waiting to see what happens.

drmike37 said:

Totally left field, but we’ve had a greyhound and a border collie.
Both have been totally fab with the kids (6yr).

My parents have also had a string of greyhounds and lurchers (my mum used to work for the RSPCA so she had a habit of taking the leftovers). They've all come from rather traumatic backgrounds, which probably explains this, but they've all had slight issues with either people or animals. If nothing else, there's a lot to chase around here!

I'd love a collie, but I always thought of them as being another couple of levels up in terms of exercise and training requirements?

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 9th June 11:16

[Chris71]

garythesign said:

If you are Ok with a cross breed you could look at Black Retriever Cross rescue.

Thanks. Actually, the name rings a bell. I think I've heard about that elsewhere.

Had a bit of a look on Pets4Homes and I can't believe how much the prices have gone up since lockdown! There were several Labs on there for £6,000. As my wife pointed out, the flipside to that is that there will be a surfeit of rescue dogs in six months' time when everyone who spontaneously decided to get a puppy realises how much hard work it is.

So what would you say the considerations are between a 'mutt' and a pedigree puppy? I'm fairly used to dealing with difficult dogs via my mum's rescue cases, but I'm nervous about subjecting my son to anything with an unproven temperament. He's quite good with dogs, but that's a relative term with a five-year old who's never actually lived with one.

[Chris71]

drmike37 said:

We rescued our collie by accident; she was a “short term” foster after her owner died - I worked with a relative of the ex owner.

My parents gained a third dog recently. My mum used to walk this jack russell for The Cinnamon Trust, but the owner went into hospital and they're now providing a long-term (possibly permanent) foster home.

I think the rescue approach might be a good idea. Healthy, child-friendly rescue puppies must be few and far between, but we'd struggle to afford £2,000+ on a pedigree puppy from a breeder (even if I didn't resent paying that for a dog that would have been half the price six months ago...)

I've dropped the Retriever Cross people a line. Might try the Guide Dogs too. I'm told they sometimes have 'reject' puppies.

PS I'm feeling left out with all the puppy pics, so here's our last flat coat when he was a puppy. No longer with us, I'm afraid, but he was brilliant.

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 9th June 15:06

[Chris71]

blueg33 said:

Lovely - chocolate lab would be my second choice of dog after a Golden Retriever

Out of interest, why a golden retriever over a Lab?

[Chris71]

stevesingo said:

Have considered (or even heard of) Bavarian Mountain Hound. Slightly smaller than a Lab, clever, loyal, energetic, robust and low maintenance WRT grooming. Oh a bloody cute.

We'd consider pretty much any variation on the gun dog theme, I think. Although it sounds like we might not have that luxury based on the price and availability of pedigree puppies at the moment. I've been window shopping occasionally on Pets4Homes for about a year and can't believe how things have changed since lockdown. It's really annoying as we've been contemplating getting a dog for about five years now.

ndtman said:

How about a Husky? Eldest son got a pup a year ago. Lovely temperament, playful and good on the lead.

I really like the look of huskies, but don't really know a huge amount about them. Had it in my head that they had extremely high exercise needs and a few unusual traits? As above, though, we'd consider pretty much anything that was a decent size and child-friendly.

Our local animal sanctuary has these two currently. They need to go as a pair, apparently, and "would be best suited to a home without children, due to their guarding nature" but did get me thinking. I love Alsatians, but might be a steep learning curve for a first-time owner.

[Chris71]

Jamie VTS said:

A border terrier would fit every one of your criteria bar the size (ours is 10kg for reference).

Must admit, the jack russell that my parents are looking after currently is a great dog. She has changed my views on small dogs, but my preference would still be something spaniel sized or larger.

stevesingo said:

Chris71 said:

stevesingo said:

Have considered (or even heard of) Bavarian Mountain Hound. Slightly smaller than a Lab, clever, loyal, energetic, robust and low maintenance WRT grooming. Oh a bloody cute.

We'd consider pretty much any variation on the gun dog theme, I think. Although it sounds like we might not have that luxury based on the price and availability of pedigree puppies at the moment. I've been window shopping occasionally on Pets4Homes for about a year and can't believe how things have changed since lockdown. It's really annoying as we've been contemplating getting a dog for about five years now.

As the BMH is not a fashionable breed, they don't demand big money. Otto was comfortably less than four figures.

I think most dogs were until about March! You still see that a 'springer cross Lab' is a third of the price of an identical dog sold as a springador.

[Chris71]

towser said:

caiss4 said:

Surprised no one's mentioned a fox-red:



He's a working lab, bred by a local farmer. Fantastically loving, docile but goes apest at anyone coming to the house

Usual lab traits - always searching for food, smells and sheds loads of hair. Now I'm retired he gets plenty of long walks which are keeping him trim (just had his eighth birthday). As the kids have left home, he's the only reason they ever come back!

I have a fox red (Yoshi) who's 10 months old now. Pretty much everything you said....kids love him, great mix of gentleness and craziness!

Just heard of a litter of fox reds coming up near us... This has suddenly got a lot more serious.

[Chris71]

I think we're basically set on a Labrador, a retriever or a cross based on either/both of those.

We are now actively looking too, although prepared to wait (something didn't feel quite right with the fox red litter I mentioned before, so we didn't take that any further).

A couple of questions:

Where would you look? So far I get the impression that the best bet is to approach local breeders and ask if they know of any pups rather than waiting for litters to be advertised.

Lab experts - can you explain hip scores to me? My understanding is the lower and the more evenly balanced the better? Looks like the current median is 9, so you really want 4.5/4.5 or less? How big a risk is it if one parent is hip scored and the other isn't? At what point would you turn down an otherwise healthy pup?

I suppose the latter has to factor in the price. I realise buying a cheap dog can be a false economy, but I am struggling to come to terms with the prices currently being charged for Labrador pups. I would want to see top marks in everything to contemplate spending twice what an average pup went for six months ago. Conversely, if it was a genuine loving home and the parents were healthy but not KC-registered, hip scored etc. I might still consider it for the right money.

Assuming we do go down the fully rated route, are there any other health tests to pay close attention to? I presume most are straightforward pass/fail screenings rather than scores that need to be interpreted?

[Chris71]

Robscim said:

Let me introduce Millie!

She's a Black Labrador(mum) Golden Retriever(Dad) cross and is now 3 years old. She has a beautiful temperament and has become a real part of the family.

We got her from a breeder in Suffolk.

We wouldn't be without her now!

Rob

The thought had occured that a 'goldador' might be a rather lovely combination. I'd find it hard to decide between a flat coat, golden retriever or Lab, so a bit of a mix sounds good.

[Chris71]

spanner10 said:

Be prepared to be cross examined - most breeders do have the interests of the dog before their wallet , and be prepared to travel

Ask vets as suggested , and owners where they got their dog from . It's best to find litters before advertised, and beware of Pets4Homes . Real prices are not that bad if you speak to , and get to know breeders. Contact the breed club secretary - they often hear about planned litters . You may need to wait for a litter to be born but this gives time to be satisfied the breeder is bona fide.

Never, ever, ever mention ,even as a joke, crossing them with poodles as this is very quick way to be judged as an unsuitable purchaser. I don't necessarily agree with this but it happens!

Good luck in your search. And as you said about the fox red ones - absolutely trust your feelings - lot of dubious ' breeders' about.

Don't worry, we're prepared for the third degree.

That was one of the things that rang alarm bells about the litter I mentioned - the breeder seemed singularly disinterested about the potential homes.

I'd like to think we're about as qualified as first-time dog owners could be. Both grew up with dogs, both work flexible hours from home, rural location with a decent-sized, secure garden...

Put the word out with a few people we know locally with various types of retriever to see where they came from. Vets are a good call. May have a lead (no pun intended) with a breeder I got chatting to on a site called Champdogs. They weren't openly advertising, but may have something coming up. They're a specialist gun dog breeder with all dogs health tested, pedigree names for both sets of parents etc. Seemed nice too.

[Chris71]

A quick rant. Over the last few days - just as a lot of companies are calling people back into work - I've noticed a sudden increase in the number of dogs being put up for sale due to 'a change in personal circumstances'. Three out of the top five Labs on Pets4Homes in my area this morning fit that description.



It really annoys me. While we've only started actively looking fairly recently, we've been working towards getting a dog for years. It's no exaggeration to say that finding somewhere we could afford a suitable house and garden for a dog was a major factor in relocating from one side of the country to another. And now, thanks to the muppets who flooded the market without doing their homework, we can barely afford the heavily inflated prices.

Anyway, rant over. Now a couple of questions...

How risky do you think these dogs of seven to nine months old could be? I realise you'd have to be very careful, ask a lot of questions, and possibly treat the owner's answers with a pinch of salt. In terms of health, I would ask all the same questions (hip scores etc) as I would to a breeder - partly to assess the dog and partly to gauge how much research the owner did before buying. I'd also leave any potentially volatile breeds well alone. But if it's something generally bombproof (in terms of temperament) like a Lab - and assuming the owner was out of their depth rather than actively abusing the animal - how much psychological baggage could the dog really pick up in seven months?

Similarly, they all seem to be about the same age. Are there any physical ailments that might have manifested themselves by that point that you wouldn't notice in a 10 or 12 week old puppy?

I won't go to a breeder who sounds at all dodgy, on principle. But picking up an adolescent dog from someone who went in with kind intentions and found themselves over their heads might be a possibility.

[Chris71]

apotek said:

our flatcoat retriever cross, Barney who we sadly lost at the start of lockdown.

Sorry to hear that. This might sound soppy, but our first flat coat - when I was a kid - was the closest I ever had to a brother or sister. My parents got him when I was three and the two of us were inseparable for the next 13 years. He's the reason I still say hello to dogs before I register the human on the other end of the lead.

[Chris71]

HelenT said:

We took on our Working Cocker Poppy when she was 9 months old, she came from a lady who had totally underestimated the breed, she had not really had the necessary training and socialisation for such an active dog, but we were able to contact the breeder which gave us some reassurance. I certainly wouldn't say it was easy but with plenty of hard work (no different to a pup) we made it through the difficult teenage phase, the selective deafness and a few sleepless nights. She's great with people not so great with other dogs. We thought about taking on a second dog even getting as far as going to see another Cocker but when we got there it was quite a relief when Poppy didn't take to her as lots of things didn't ring true advert said she was spayed, she wasn't and in fact it looked like she had recently had pups and missing gaps in her history so we walked away.I think with an adult or a puppy you've got to trust your instincts.

That was my thinking - on both counts. We've walked away from one puppy breeder, because things didn't quite add up. When it comes to adopting older dogs, I always think of my parents' Labrador, Diva. Her previous owner trained her to a high standard as a potential gun dog, but everything else about her upbringing was pretty awful - kept outside with little socialisation, almost no human contact and no experience of children whatsoever. After six years of that, my parents took her over. This is now her with my five-year old:


There aren't many breeds I'd want a young kid rolling around with if they came from that sort of background, but she's one of the sweetest dogs I've ever met.

dhutch said:

I've not read the whole thread, but as you mention you both work it would be nice to have a dog that can curl up between walks, I would definitely consider a Lurchers.

We've had a lot of lurchers and greyhounds in the family (all rescues from one place or another). I sort of feel I've ticked that box and I'm also a bit worried about prey drive. We are surrounded by fields on three sides, with a road on the other.

The good thing is that we both work from home and we have flexible hours, so although we're more or less full-time, there's nothing to stop one of us taking an hour out in the morning for a walk and the other doing it again in the afternoon. I do think we'd be pushing it a bit with a vizsla or a collie or something that needs extremely high amounts of exercise, but I reckon we'd be fine with a retriever. Between us, we have more free time (and more outside space) than my parents did with their first flat coat.

[Chris71]

Getting back on track ... what about a German shepherd as a family dog?

I know these are not ordinarily considered a good choice for first-time owners, but we both have experience of training dogs before. Don't really know much about them as a breed, but there are some lovely gentle giants that we occasionally meet walking around here.

[Chris71]

spanner10 said:

Good luck with your quest

Thanks, some good info.

Maybe not then.

We are rather different to the average first-time dog owners in that we both have a fair amount of experience of looking after and training dogs in the past. That said, it sounds like a GSD might be a step too far. Maybe one for next time.

[Chris71]

Chris71 said:

spanner10 said:

Good luck with your quest

Thanks, some good info.

Maybe not then.

We are rather different to the average first-time dog owners in that we both have a fair amount of experience of looking after and training dogs in the past. That said, it sounds like a GSD might be a step too far. Maybe one for next time.

Ahem, I might have said this and then registered with South West GSD Rescue regardless. My thinking is that they will generally be quite forthright about whether a dog is suitable for a particular home. They had some GSD crosses in that had apparently been socialised with children as part of their programme.

[Chris71]

dhutch said:

Why not eh!

There are some who will be breedist, we see this even with our collie greyhound lurcher, which unfairly paints the GSD as aggressive. This not only means that people miss out on a lovely dog they could have had, but also that even if you have a lovely dog people will be apprehensive towards it/you for none other than their own prejudice.

Obviously there is an extend of bread traits coming out, labs are stupidly food orientate and willing to please, and a combination of this makes it reasonable easy for even inexperienced and or incompetent to get a dog that will come back or roll over if they have food. However training any dog is, with exception, reasonably easy if you follow and understand the basic and put yourself in the dogs shoes. When they finally come back after taking a while, praise them for coming back, don't bk them for taking a while, that time has passed!

Obviously with rescues, even if quite young, (and to an extend puppies) there is also an element of environmental traits they will have picked up on, and GSD will sadly have had a greater share of people who bought them to be an aggressive dog then say a cockapoo, but as with all recuses, you get their history the best you can, you go an see them in the shelter, you take them out for a walk or to meet your other family/dog etc and then eventually you take them home, and if it all goes tits up, sometimes they come back again.

Some of the best behaved dogs I have known are GSDs that get the time and training they need, and some of the fattest leave well behaviour mutts I have ever met have been labs which just get chocolate and let on the sofa and owners that moan about vet bills they have created, takes your choice.

Daniel

Indeed. I've seen the difference between a badly trained GSD-cross (lethal) and a badly trained Lab (angelic). That leaves me in no doubt which would be the bigger responsibility, but I think just about anything can be okay if you train it from a puppy. We would only take one of the potentially volatile breeds if it had been born at the rescue centre or had a well-documented history with children, but it does happen. Someone my wife knows runs a small rescue charity and she went to get a dog the other week (another GSD cross, I think). This morning it had seven puppies.

[Chris71]

spanner10 said:

There you go ! and pick of the litter ?

Not sure what's happening with these ones, but we're having a homecheck for the local GSD rescue next week.

I think a Lab is still the most likely option, but definitely open to other options.

Will check out the Large Munsterlander. My only reservation is whether they might struggle to settle if we're both working or if we're out for short periods. I think we can offer more than a typical young family can in that regard (we both work at home, for instance) but still going to be out and about occasionally.