Family Court without a Solicitor - Anyone done it?
Discussion
I'm in the unenviable position of having to take my ex (mother to my two children) to court to agree childcare arrangements. However, I'm not in the position to be paying hand over fist for solicitors fees. I'm not eligible for Legal Aid, either.
I've applied for MIAM (Mediation Information and Assessment Meeting) and I'm confident that the ex won't show up. It's my understanding that they can then sign my court application and I can file for a Child Arrangements order where I can out across what I want the Court to order.
Has anyone had any success in doing this without a solicitor?
Cheers
Mike
I've applied for MIAM (Mediation Information and Assessment Meeting) and I'm confident that the ex won't show up. It's my understanding that they can then sign my court application and I can file for a Child Arrangements order where I can out across what I want the Court to order.
Has anyone had any success in doing this without a solicitor?
Cheers
Mike
Thanks guys.
To provide a little more background. The ex and I have been split up for coming up three years now. For the first year of that, it was ad-hoc and I'd have them whenever she was working or I wanted to see them. For the last two years, there has been a structure to it. I have them every Tuesday and Thursday night and every other weekend, Friday to Monday morning (I drop them to school). So that's 7 nights in every 14.
However, when in comes to Bank Hols, Christmas, Birthdays and School Hols, the ex often agrees to things (written and/or verbally) and then reneges on those agreements. Leaving me, and more importantly, not know when they will see her/me next. It gets very upsetting for the kids (7 & 5) as I try to set their expectations as to when they'll be seeing their mammy next, or wen they'll be seeing me next. They miss both of us very much when they're with the other.
What I want the court to do, is formally order the arrangement we have from a day to day perspective as well as order who the children stay with on the exceptions, such as Bank Hols, Birthdays etc. I'm happy to propose that they be split evenly. And even that birthdays should be spent with whoever they are supposed to be with that day, according to the routine schedule. I just want it formalised so she can't renege on it.
I guess, a supplementary question would be, is the order even worth the paper it's written on? What are the consequences if she continues to renege?
To provide a little more background. The ex and I have been split up for coming up three years now. For the first year of that, it was ad-hoc and I'd have them whenever she was working or I wanted to see them. For the last two years, there has been a structure to it. I have them every Tuesday and Thursday night and every other weekend, Friday to Monday morning (I drop them to school). So that's 7 nights in every 14.
However, when in comes to Bank Hols, Christmas, Birthdays and School Hols, the ex often agrees to things (written and/or verbally) and then reneges on those agreements. Leaving me, and more importantly, not know when they will see her/me next. It gets very upsetting for the kids (7 & 5) as I try to set their expectations as to when they'll be seeing their mammy next, or wen they'll be seeing me next. They miss both of us very much when they're with the other.
What I want the court to do, is formally order the arrangement we have from a day to day perspective as well as order who the children stay with on the exceptions, such as Bank Hols, Birthdays etc. I'm happy to propose that they be split evenly. And even that birthdays should be spent with whoever they are supposed to be with that day, according to the routine schedule. I just want it formalised so she can't renege on it.
I guess, a supplementary question would be, is the order even worth the paper it's written on? What are the consequences if she continues to renege?
mjb1 said:
I'm in a similar situation, I have my kids about 3 nights per week on average. It's been like that for a couple of years, and we've both been pretty flexible to work around each other. But now ex is getting stroppy about things saying "either we get back together or I'm moving to the other side of the country". All in limbo at the moment (waiting for me to make a decision on us getting back together, which just isn't something I can do even 'for the sake of the kids'), but I'm expecting it to turn nasty at any moment. I know that as soon as it does, the kids will be further weaponised against me. When things have got a bit heated in the past, she's regularly said to me "you have them too much, they should only come to you every other weekend". At the same time she's constantly phoning/messaging me to say that she can't cope with them when they're with her!
I had a consultation with a solicitor a few weeks ago, mainly about applying for a prohibited steps order to try and stop her moving away. Obviously, we can't practically maintain a shared care arrangement if she moves 300 miles away from me. I chatted to the solicitor for about an hour, free of charge, gave her the details and she advised on potential options and how the system works. Most solicitors will do this as it's generally how they get new business (like how other trades give their time to come out and measure up for quotes etc). Nothing to stop you going to see several different solicitors at different stages, with your questions. Lady I spoke to was talking about £5k fees to take things to court. She also said that attempts to use mediation first are essential, except in certain circumstances.
So I've not got as far as court yet myself. From what I can gather, the answer on whether you should self represent is 'it depends'. If you're case is quite strong, and the opposition doesn't have legal representation either (can she afford it herself, would she qualify for legal aid?), and you are reasonably confident that you can get your point across coherently without rambling or getting angry/emotional about things, then it might be worthy of a punt. I've got a friend who's ex is a real nasty piece of work, making all sorts of false accusations against him, when in reality she isn't fit to be raising a child (he ultimately won custody of his daughter). First time they went to court, he was pretty confident, and he should have been in a very strong position. But his ex's barrister ran rings around him, clouding the argument with her false accusations. It's difficult to defend yourself in person (you want to say 'that's a load of b
ks', but in reality, you just get drawn into trying to defend yourself, and generally it's much easier for a legal professional to defend you in the third person). On the other hand, if she can't get legal representation for herself, it might end up looking bad if your barrister tears strips off her and she turns on the waterworks.
The fact that you've had an informal arrangement in place, and obviously working, for a decent length of time, puts you in a very strong position. Why should the status quo be changed so your kids end up with less contact with you? That's your main argument. You are just trying to firm up a casual agreement (and on the face of it that's something that should be achievable by mediation at worst). And even if you do get the contact you want written into a court order, she can still easily flout it if she wants to ("they're ill today, can't come to yours/oops, I forgot/my car broke down.").
There's a forum on separateddads.co.uk that appears to have some quite helpful people on it, could be worth a browse at least.
Feel for you there, chap. I had a consultation with a solicitor a few weeks ago, mainly about applying for a prohibited steps order to try and stop her moving away. Obviously, we can't practically maintain a shared care arrangement if she moves 300 miles away from me. I chatted to the solicitor for about an hour, free of charge, gave her the details and she advised on potential options and how the system works. Most solicitors will do this as it's generally how they get new business (like how other trades give their time to come out and measure up for quotes etc). Nothing to stop you going to see several different solicitors at different stages, with your questions. Lady I spoke to was talking about £5k fees to take things to court. She also said that attempts to use mediation first are essential, except in certain circumstances.
So I've not got as far as court yet myself. From what I can gather, the answer on whether you should self represent is 'it depends'. If you're case is quite strong, and the opposition doesn't have legal representation either (can she afford it herself, would she qualify for legal aid?), and you are reasonably confident that you can get your point across coherently without rambling or getting angry/emotional about things, then it might be worthy of a punt. I've got a friend who's ex is a real nasty piece of work, making all sorts of false accusations against him, when in reality she isn't fit to be raising a child (he ultimately won custody of his daughter). First time they went to court, he was pretty confident, and he should have been in a very strong position. But his ex's barrister ran rings around him, clouding the argument with her false accusations. It's difficult to defend yourself in person (you want to say 'that's a load of b
ks', but in reality, you just get drawn into trying to defend yourself, and generally it's much easier for a legal professional to defend you in the third person). On the other hand, if she can't get legal representation for herself, it might end up looking bad if your barrister tears strips off her and she turns on the waterworks.The fact that you've had an informal arrangement in place, and obviously working, for a decent length of time, puts you in a very strong position. Why should the status quo be changed so your kids end up with less contact with you? That's your main argument. You are just trying to firm up a casual agreement (and on the face of it that's something that should be achievable by mediation at worst). And even if you do get the contact you want written into a court order, she can still easily flout it if she wants to ("they're ill today, can't come to yours/oops, I forgot/my car broke down.").
There's a forum on separateddads.co.uk that appears to have some quite helpful people on it, could be worth a browse at least.
I'm lucky in the fact that we do not want to get back together (I have a girlfriend [for how long, I'm not sure as the stress is starting to get to her too
] and she has a(nother) boyfriend. Thanks for the advice on seeing a solicitor. I visited one just before Christmas (as she reneged on an agreement we had then, too) and she quoted similar costs. However, she was very honest and told me that, if it were her, she wouldn't spend £5k on solicitors. She'd leave the informal agreement in place and spend £5k on the kids instead. Citing the ex's ability not to adhere to orders anyway.
Interestingly, the issue is a little backwards to what people assume. It's not that she won't let me see them. It's that she won't see them when she has promised. Leaving the kids upset that they can't see their mammy because "but mammy said...". I love them to bits, and they love me the same. But they also love their mother. But outside of the usual agreement, she looks for every opportunity to not see them. Throwing the fact that I "should get to know your kids better" even when I see them, arguably, more than she does.
I've been looking on separateddads today and have done on a couple of occasions. I have my C100 form mostly filled in and am awaiting an apt for mediation.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has represented themselves as a litigate in person. :thumbsup:
I've recently had to revisit this option and it reminded me of this thread, so thought I would update.
I've got all my court forms in order, so will be making an application to the court for an arrangement order, without a solicitor.
This comes after the ex has stopped me seeing the kids (or more importantly, stopping the kids from seeing me) every Thursday. Her reasons are twofold:
Firstly, as well as paying her a fixed sum via Standing Order every month, I also pay for a mobile phone contract. This falls outside of my obligations (they are met by the Standing Order), however reassures me that she will never have an excuse not to be contactable, or contact me, in an emergency involving the kids. When I first took out a contract for her, I provided her with the mobile phone that came with this - A Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge. Which she duly proceeded to break into a million pieces owing to her unworldly clumsiness. I recently renewed the contract, allowing her to keep the same contract but didn't give her a phone this time. A SIM only contract if you like. I gave the new handset to my current girlfriend as she was in need of one. The ex took exception to this and has threatened to stop me seeing the kids every Thursday until I give "her phone" back to her. She's clearly stated that if I give her the phone back, she'll reinstate access. I've offered to increase the monetary payments, but she's declined.
Secondly, she's stated that she is struggling to afford day to day living and needs me to pay more child maintenance. By restricting access on a Thursday, I will fall into the "2-3 nights per week" category with the CSA. She has states that she will now apply to the CSA for payments to be made on that basis.
I've called the CSA and they have re-assured me they will not get involved in forcing me to pay anything without a court order. So that's a relief. More interestingly, the helpful chap at the CSA advised me that if I have them 7 nights in every 14, this is essentially shared care and would be treated as a null claim. Meaning I shouldn't actually have paying anything. Which is slightly besides the point as I'm happy to contribute.
Despite trying to reason with the ex, advising her to contact the CSA and seek legal advice as she's grossly misunderstood the way to use the CSA payment guidelines., she's being persistent and last week was the first time she's stopped me seeing them on a weekday. I fear this week will be the same.
So I'm applying to the court to make an Arrangement Order to reinstate the previous arrangement we've had for the last 3 years.
Any advice appreciated, otherwise, fingers crossed.
I've got all my court forms in order, so will be making an application to the court for an arrangement order, without a solicitor.
This comes after the ex has stopped me seeing the kids (or more importantly, stopping the kids from seeing me) every Thursday. Her reasons are twofold:
Firstly, as well as paying her a fixed sum via Standing Order every month, I also pay for a mobile phone contract. This falls outside of my obligations (they are met by the Standing Order), however reassures me that she will never have an excuse not to be contactable, or contact me, in an emergency involving the kids. When I first took out a contract for her, I provided her with the mobile phone that came with this - A Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge. Which she duly proceeded to break into a million pieces owing to her unworldly clumsiness. I recently renewed the contract, allowing her to keep the same contract but didn't give her a phone this time. A SIM only contract if you like. I gave the new handset to my current girlfriend as she was in need of one. The ex took exception to this and has threatened to stop me seeing the kids every Thursday until I give "her phone" back to her. She's clearly stated that if I give her the phone back, she'll reinstate access. I've offered to increase the monetary payments, but she's declined.
Secondly, she's stated that she is struggling to afford day to day living and needs me to pay more child maintenance. By restricting access on a Thursday, I will fall into the "2-3 nights per week" category with the CSA. She has states that she will now apply to the CSA for payments to be made on that basis.
I've called the CSA and they have re-assured me they will not get involved in forcing me to pay anything without a court order. So that's a relief. More interestingly, the helpful chap at the CSA advised me that if I have them 7 nights in every 14, this is essentially shared care and would be treated as a null claim. Meaning I shouldn't actually have paying anything. Which is slightly besides the point as I'm happy to contribute.
Despite trying to reason with the ex, advising her to contact the CSA and seek legal advice as she's grossly misunderstood the way to use the CSA payment guidelines., she's being persistent and last week was the first time she's stopped me seeing them on a weekday. I fear this week will be the same.
So I'm applying to the court to make an Arrangement Order to reinstate the previous arrangement we've had for the last 3 years.
Any advice appreciated, otherwise, fingers crossed.
MYOB said:
No advice here but watching with interest. I've filed my Child Arrangement Order, along with Occupation Order and Financial Order...simultaneously.
All the various hearings have just began and it's extremely time consuming, stressful and there isn't enough hours in the day to deal with everything.
But with just the one application from you, yes it's manageable. Certainly don't pay extra for solicitors. Probably won't make any difference to the outcome.
Good luck.
Thanks. Did you have to pay fees for each of those orders, if you don't mind me asking?All the various hearings have just began and it's extremely time consuming, stressful and there isn't enough hours in the day to deal with everything.
But with just the one application from you, yes it's manageable. Certainly don't pay extra for solicitors. Probably won't make any difference to the outcome.
Good luck.
I'm assuming the occupation order is who they live with and financial who pays for what?
mjb1 said:
MikeyPlum, I was under the impression that even with 50/50 shared care CMS calculator still says that one parent has to pay maintenance (a small amount) to the other?
I'm back here in the similar situation to the OP that I was earlier in this thread as well. The ex went quiet about moving away last year, all seemed to be going ok. Then Christmas day (we all spent Christmas at my house, with her as well, for the sake of the kids), she turns round and raises it again - "if things aren't better, I'm moving away in 6 months". Now by better she basically means me taking her back, which isn't going to happen. And when she says she's moving away, she obviously means her and the kids (although she doesn't mention them).
So here I am on tenterhooks again, waiting to see if she's serious this time (which she does appear to be, even possibly moving sooner) before starting on the legal route as I know that'll rile her right up. I can't really afford a big legal bill, and neither can she, and there's been even more water under the bridge on her side that makes her look like a bad parent. I haven't stood up to her at all about it yet (I think she's trying to provoke an argument/reaction from me, as is her style), just shrugged it off/ignore her when she mentions it.
She's living in a nice house, in a nice area, the kids are at a very good school and are settled. It's about 15 mile away from me, so near enough to be closlely involved with the kids, but far enough that she's not on my doorstep all the time. She wants to move to the town where she went to uni 20 years ago, on the grounds that she needs friends and support with the kids. All her old friends there are either going to still be part of the heavy drinking/partying crowd that she was in with then, or have moved on with families of their own, and won't be interested in her reliving her youth as a middle aged alcoholic. It's a fairly rough town (compared to what my kids are used to anyway), so there is no benefit at all to the kids to relocate there. Obviously she's going to have far less 'support' with parenting, as there is nobody that's going to fill the gap of me having the kids nearly half the week. So the entire plan is entirely deluded and fueled by her appetite for alcohol and casual sex. If she really needs to do that for her own reasons, it'd probably be best for the kids to stay here with me. Which is entirely feasible for me to do, with a bit of careful planning.
I've no idea what my chances are of convincing the family court to either A) prohibit her from moving away so far, or B) making me the resident parent, with or without legal representation. But I've got to try something, even if it is so that I can stand proud and say I did my best.
I contacted the CSA on the phone and the helpful chap stated it would be considered shared access which is a null claim. Worth giving them a call as there's not an awful lot of info immediately available online. I'm back here in the similar situation to the OP that I was earlier in this thread as well. The ex went quiet about moving away last year, all seemed to be going ok. Then Christmas day (we all spent Christmas at my house, with her as well, for the sake of the kids), she turns round and raises it again - "if things aren't better, I'm moving away in 6 months". Now by better she basically means me taking her back, which isn't going to happen. And when she says she's moving away, she obviously means her and the kids (although she doesn't mention them).
So here I am on tenterhooks again, waiting to see if she's serious this time (which she does appear to be, even possibly moving sooner) before starting on the legal route as I know that'll rile her right up. I can't really afford a big legal bill, and neither can she, and there's been even more water under the bridge on her side that makes her look like a bad parent. I haven't stood up to her at all about it yet (I think she's trying to provoke an argument/reaction from me, as is her style), just shrugged it off/ignore her when she mentions it.
She's living in a nice house, in a nice area, the kids are at a very good school and are settled. It's about 15 mile away from me, so near enough to be closlely involved with the kids, but far enough that she's not on my doorstep all the time. She wants to move to the town where she went to uni 20 years ago, on the grounds that she needs friends and support with the kids. All her old friends there are either going to still be part of the heavy drinking/partying crowd that she was in with then, or have moved on with families of their own, and won't be interested in her reliving her youth as a middle aged alcoholic. It's a fairly rough town (compared to what my kids are used to anyway), so there is no benefit at all to the kids to relocate there. Obviously she's going to have far less 'support' with parenting, as there is nobody that's going to fill the gap of me having the kids nearly half the week. So the entire plan is entirely deluded and fueled by her appetite for alcohol and casual sex. If she really needs to do that for her own reasons, it'd probably be best for the kids to stay here with me. Which is entirely feasible for me to do, with a bit of careful planning.
I've no idea what my chances are of convincing the family court to either A) prohibit her from moving away so far, or B) making me the resident parent, with or without legal representation. But I've got to try something, even if it is so that I can stand proud and say I did my best.
It's a tricky situation you're in. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about the threat of getting back together, we both know that's not at all what we want. However, she is one for using the kids as leverage to get me to give in to her requests. So want that to stop with a court order.
She's still fully convinced that she's in the right and has even said I'll be far worse off financially if I take her to court. She's forgetting the her new fella is working whilst claiming sick pay and she hasn't declared him living with her whilst claiming Housing Benefit
Wonder how the court will see that?JulianPH said:
Useful stuff
Julian - thanks for this info. Very insightful. I don't think it's going to sway my momentum of thought of taking her to court. All manner of reasoning and communications are futile, unfortunately. Quick one though, do text messages hold any weight in cases? I've asked her outright on text to attend mediation and if she has any safeguarding concerns when the children are in my car, both of which she answered no to. Will that go in my favour?mjb1 said:
Mikey, how do you think your ex will react to you taking it to court? Is she likely to stay rational, she's already weaponised the kids by the sound of it.
She goes mental at the smallest sign that I'm not dancing to the rhythm of her beat, so probably, yeah 
. But I'm used to it now, I know how to deal with her tantrums so will just let her crack on. I'll save the text messages in case I need to use them.mjb1 said:
Mikeyplum said:
Well, I've got my first mediation appointment next Thursday. So I guess I'll know a little more about the next steps by then.
Did you go through with the mediation last year, did that achieve anything?One thing I don't understand though - do I have to call the court to make payment before I send the application? Or at the same time? Or after? Nothing I can find clarifies when I should make payment.
JulianPH said:
You have your MIAM exemption nnow. This shows the court that you have fulfilled your duties to enter into mediation before the court will consider your case. The text relating to her not being willing to attend mediation is useful, but no longer remains that relevant.
Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Julian, thank you so much for your advice. I really do appreciate it. Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
- This hearing has been listed for a non-contested final hearing
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
- The children will continue with the established routine of living equally between both parents with an equal division of time spent between each parent and this is not challenged
- The children will have an equal division of school holidays between each parent
- The parents retain equal and joint parental responsibility for the children
- The parents will provide the children and the other parent with at least three months notice of the division of school holidays (six months for the summer holiday) to ensure each parent has the oppurtunity to plan school holiday arrangements in advance and that such arrangements once agreed between between the parents cannot later be amended without the consent and agreement of both parents
- Should either parent act in any way that frustrates the ease of access currently enjoyed between the children and the other parent then that parent is responsible for remedying their actions so no additional burden is placed upon the other parent
- Birthdays and Christmases will rotate each year between each parent
- There are no outstanding issues in dispute between the parties
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Edited by JulianPH on Wednesday 17th January 16:34
I've highlighted the above line and, unfortunately, I've tried several times but she is not budging on the "needing more money" line so has reduced access to try and achieve this. So not sure what other options I may have.
Thanks for the comments on not bringing up her living arrangements and associated benefits claimed. I wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot by coming across as though I have a vengeance.
JulianPH said:
Child Arrangement Orders are a completely separate matter from financial arrangement (called Ancillary Relief when part of a divorce) and are never heard together at the same hearing.
However, it will not surprise you in the slightest that this does not prevent many mothers marching down this route as they know the children are their best weapon against you in getting what she wants.
Were you married and if so you pay her maintenance (or a clean break lump sum)? Do you have a court Consent Order confirming this?
If there was no marriage and no maintenance then I assume you are only paying child support.
This is calculated in a set way, apart from in very rare cases where the person paying this has very high levels of income or assets - and even then this is not a given.
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-child-maintenanc...
Happy to help, but I think I may have blurred the lines between different posts/issues so sorry if that is the case. I am at home with Aussie Flu, feeling wretched with a head that is not firing on all cylinders!
If you want to go over the points again in one post I will try and respond to each one. IIRC correctly the initial issue was her messing about with collecting the kids and last minute changes to agreed holiday contact. I'm I right in this has escalated into her withdrawing contact unless you meet her financial demands (and if so do you have written evidence of this)?
Wow Aussie flu is no joke! I'm surprised you're able to be as helpful as you are! However, it will not surprise you in the slightest that this does not prevent many mothers marching down this route as they know the children are their best weapon against you in getting what she wants.
Were you married and if so you pay her maintenance (or a clean break lump sum)? Do you have a court Consent Order confirming this?
If there was no marriage and no maintenance then I assume you are only paying child support.
This is calculated in a set way, apart from in very rare cases where the person paying this has very high levels of income or assets - and even then this is not a given.
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-child-maintenanc...
Happy to help, but I think I may have blurred the lines between different posts/issues so sorry if that is the case. I am at home with Aussie Flu, feeling wretched with a head that is not firing on all cylinders!
If you want to go over the points again in one post I will try and respond to each one. IIRC correctly the initial issue was her messing about with collecting the kids and last minute changes to agreed holiday contact. I'm I right in this has escalated into her withdrawing contact unless you meet her financial demands (and if so do you have written evidence of this)?
Main points are:
- Not married
- Fixed Child Support payments made monthly for over 2 years into her bank account, in accordance with the CSA guidelines (using the exact link you've provided)
- Regular schedule of who has kids and when, been in place for over 2 years.
- I have had them 7 nights in every 14 for this period. 2 regular weeknights and every other weekend, Fri night to Mon morning.
- She often reneges on verbal agreements on exceptions (i.e. Birthdays, Christmas etc.)
- Recently she's reduced my access by one week night per week so I fall into a different category in the CSA's eyes, to try and get me to pay more money.
- The decision for her to reduce my access also stems from the fact I haven't given her a new mobile phone (rolls eyes).
I hope that helps Julian. I do want to avoid court at all costs, but I really don't see any other options at the moment.
JulianPH said:
I can confirm the Aussie Flu is not nice at all!
Could it simply be that you will agree to give her a new phone if she agrees to formalise arrangements? Or has it gone past that now?
Sometimes the simplest route is the most desired one for both parties. I sense she feels aggrieved regarding the phone and wants to be seen to have won. If you let here know court action inevitable but you are prepared to concede to her demand (so she considers she has won and you have lost) in order to reduce legal costs for both of you, then this would be a fantastic result.
Sometimes the smallest of issues is allowed to fester and blow up out of all proportion when someone feels aggrieved. If you could manage this route with her you will save yourself a fortune in legal fees (her too), have resolution within a couple of months rather than a year, and save yourself the physical and emotional stress that a contested hearing (with cross examination) brings.
Given her earlier issues it also sounds like she is cutting off her nose to spite her face by increasing the time she has to look after the kids. She may welcome this approach.
Finally, if she is after more money each month it may may more sense for you to agree with this in order to get what you want. You are going to spend the money one way or another and I understand the result is that she is getting more than she should. I know this will not 'feel' right, but if you can detach yourself emotionally, what would you consider to be the best result for you;
Thank you Julian - again, really really appreciate it! - Not married - Great
- Fixed Child Support - Great
- Regular schedule in place - Great, you are right in seeking to formalise this, and as quickly as possible
- Reneges of verbal agreement - Covered by the point above
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Could it simply be that you will agree to give her a new phone if she agrees to formalise arrangements? Or has it gone past that now?
Sometimes the simplest route is the most desired one for both parties. I sense she feels aggrieved regarding the phone and wants to be seen to have won. If you let here know court action inevitable but you are prepared to concede to her demand (so she considers she has won and you have lost) in order to reduce legal costs for both of you, then this would be a fantastic result.
Sometimes the smallest of issues is allowed to fester and blow up out of all proportion when someone feels aggrieved. If you could manage this route with her you will save yourself a fortune in legal fees (her too), have resolution within a couple of months rather than a year, and save yourself the physical and emotional stress that a contested hearing (with cross examination) brings.
Given her earlier issues it also sounds like she is cutting off her nose to spite her face by increasing the time she has to look after the kids. She may welcome this approach.
Finally, if she is after more money each month it may may more sense for you to agree with this in order to get what you want. You are going to spend the money one way or another and I understand the result is that she is getting more than she should. I know this will not 'feel' right, but if you can detach yourself emotionally, what would you consider to be the best result for you;
- You spend £5,000 (and the rest) on up to a years worth of contested court action with no guarantee of the outcome and an inevitable deterioration of contact (and increase of hostilities) as a direct (defensive) result of this.
- You spend the same amount of money, but spread over 4 years, on the agreement of a guaranteed outcome (because she thinks she has won and you have lost).
To answer the below:
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Completely agree with giving her the phone. I'd give her mine as to not make the OH suffer, my situation, not hers (although she has offered it back).
I've just got off the phone with her. It's Thursday and I'd usually have the kids. I called to speak to the kids and say about picking them up tonight. But "Oh mammy said she's going to take us to the cinema and buy us sweets with [her boyfriend's daughter]" so they obviously would want to stay there. She never takes them anywhere in the week. Just so happens she's planned an outing on the night I'm supposed to have them.
ETA - I mentioned putting this to bed as it's just over a mobile phone. I've offered her additional money (verbally), but it's clear she wants the phone back to satisfy her perverse sense of pride and one-up-manship.
My eldest (8yr old boy) has already told me she's mentioned not coming to mine on a Thursday anymore. Which has really annoyed me as now they have the expectation that they're not coming. They were genuinely sad about it, but being the amazing kids they are reassured me that "it's ok as we'll make sure we have double the fun when we do see you"
. Even if I do give her the phone, I'll want the Arrangement Order so she can't try and pull this stunt in the future whenever she throws her toys out of the pram.
Ari - that's exactly what I foresee, unfortunately.
I need a pint.
Edited by MikeDrop on Thursday 18th January 16:27
MYOB said:
Useful background there Julian. So to summarise, those with no money are strongly disadvantaged?
And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
Wish you all the best MYOB And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
Keep us posted here and I hope you get what you are seeking PAUL500 said:
I was a LIP in 2013 when my ex played the occupation order/non molestation game, as I mentioned previously its all down to the judge on the day, even now as to how they view a LIP. Yes since removal of legal aid they are seeing far more, but most do not like it one bit, In time I guess as new fresh young judges come on board it will be more accepted.
An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
Paul that sounds awful but, whatever Karma sorted it, I'm just glad it's sorted. Your later advice on the light at the end of the tunnel is reassuring too, so thanks for that. It's just when you're in the eye of the storm, it's hard to imagine what life will be like in xyz years. An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
JulianPH said:
Go and have a pint! 
I now know what you need to do:
You need to print off all the evidence you have (separately where possible, combined where not) together with a diary of all contact, highlighting when your ex did not turn up for collection and/or changed plans at last minute.
Highlight that she is putting special effort into the kids well-being only on nights they expected to be with you (oldest trick in the book).
Instruct a solicitor to forward these as evidence of her actions with a covering letter that simply reads;
Dear
We have been instructed by our client to confirm your position on matters relating to your joint children.
It is evidenced below that you are preventing the children from continuing with an established routine of parental contact on the basis that you require our client to provide you with a new mobile phone. It is further evidenced that you are reducing the children's contact with their father in order to increase your Child Support payments.
Our experience is that the courts never take kindly to such manoeuvring by a parent to satisfy their own gains at the expense of the children's well-being. Should you seek your own legal representation this will be further confirmed to you.
Our client has already instructed us to commence with court proceedings but is currently going against our advice by wishing to see if this matter can be resolved outside of court and only ratified by a Consent Order within the court.
Our client is offering to purchase the new phone if you agree to minimise the time and expense of protracted court hearings bay agreeing to the Order below.
We expect your response by the the 25th of January at the latest before we commence formal court proceedings.
Yours
If she agrees, I'll pay for the phone!
Well I didn't have time for pint, as it turned out! I now know what you need to do:
You need to print off all the evidence you have (separately where possible, combined where not) together with a diary of all contact, highlighting when your ex did not turn up for collection and/or changed plans at last minute.
Highlight that she is putting special effort into the kids well-being only on nights they expected to be with you (oldest trick in the book).
Instruct a solicitor to forward these as evidence of her actions with a covering letter that simply reads;
Dear
We have been instructed by our client to confirm your position on matters relating to your joint children.
It is evidenced below that you are preventing the children from continuing with an established routine of parental contact on the basis that you require our client to provide you with a new mobile phone. It is further evidenced that you are reducing the children's contact with their father in order to increase your Child Support payments.
Our experience is that the courts never take kindly to such manoeuvring by a parent to satisfy their own gains at the expense of the children's well-being. Should you seek your own legal representation this will be further confirmed to you.
Our client has already instructed us to commence with court proceedings but is currently going against our advice by wishing to see if this matter can be resolved outside of court and only ratified by a Consent Order within the court.
Our client is offering to purchase the new phone if you agree to minimise the time and expense of protracted court hearings bay agreeing to the Order below.
We expect your response by the the 25th of January at the latest before we commence formal court proceedings.
Yours
If she agrees, I'll pay for the phone!
But again, I can't thank you enough for your help Julian, really appreciate it! And as for the offer to buy the phone, it'll be me sending you a bottle of your favorite tipple I think!
I've got in touch with a family member who's a solicitor and he's put me in touch with a family law colleague so hopefully, they won't charge through the nose to get a (pre-written) letter sent out!
PAUL500 said:
The problem in my case is that my ex simply refused to negotiate anything at all right throughout the process, my solicitor/barrister every time we had to attend court would go off to see hers, and quickly come back shaking their heads, total refusal to come to any sort of deal.
The other problem was she used a self employed tag team of husband and wife solicitor/barrister who worked from their own home, it was totally in their financial interest to convince her to push it right through to the final hearing. They even had her paying their fees straight away each time via a loan agreement also sorted by them.
When the opposite side acts like that, you are simply along for the ride until it reaches its legal conclusion, there is nothing you can do to halt it.
Her barrister when the judge later gave his summing up in court after the final hearing (whole day) even appealed the decision on the spot (my solicitor was shocked) and when that failed then tried to convince the ex to appeal within the 28 day deadline after, but by then even she realised she had been given the deal of the century and did not want to risk it.
My god, when I read this through I wonder how the hell I am still here after all that back then!
Paul - I feel for you there. I'm lucky that I know the ex doesn't have the financial means to pay for such services. I'm not even sure she's entitled to Legal Aid (on the grounds there is no DV involved). The other problem was she used a self employed tag team of husband and wife solicitor/barrister who worked from their own home, it was totally in their financial interest to convince her to push it right through to the final hearing. They even had her paying their fees straight away each time via a loan agreement also sorted by them.
When the opposite side acts like that, you are simply along for the ride until it reaches its legal conclusion, there is nothing you can do to halt it.
Her barrister when the judge later gave his summing up in court after the final hearing (whole day) even appealed the decision on the spot (my solicitor was shocked) and when that failed then tried to convince the ex to appeal within the 28 day deadline after, but by then even she realised she had been given the deal of the century and did not want to risk it.
My god, when I read this through I wonder how the hell I am still here after all that back then!
bristolracer said:
Chin up buddy.
Been there myself, long time ago so my input wont be up to date for this thread.
Some things dont change. I do remember the pain. The pain of feeling like your heart had been ripped out and put through a cheese grater. The knot in the stomach,the lack of sleep,the feeling of total stress,wondering if being dead would be easier.
What ever you do, never raise your voice to your ex,and never ever argue with her. You will have to bite your tongue. Its so easy for them to claim aggressive behaviour,and once they convince the world of that you are fked.
Avoid Caffcass or whatever its called these days, they never side with the Father. Keep all correspondence with the ex,and try to communicate using text,email,social media-stuff that can used as evidence later. It also allows you to take a deep breath and compose a calm answer when she says something nasty
I went to court with no solicitor, it seriously put her solicitors plan out of order,she was expecting the usual tit for tat lets empty their wallets nonsense.
I just sat their and calmly explained to the judge that we had been to court three times now and my only interest was that my children should be able to have a relationship with their father.
I still have every sympathy for the Fathers for Justice guys,and believe the system in this country is badly wrong and in these supposedly enlightened times family law needs changing.
I cannot understand how any "family" lawyer can sleep at night,they cause so much heartache and emotional turmoil for all parties concerned.
To all of you experiencing this,you have the strength to deal with it,you have to step up,your kids need you to step up,you cannot leave them in a toxic environment too scared to tell mummy they want to see daddy.
Good luck to you all
Thanks for the encouragement. Been there myself, long time ago so my input wont be up to date for this thread.
Some things dont change. I do remember the pain. The pain of feeling like your heart had been ripped out and put through a cheese grater. The knot in the stomach,the lack of sleep,the feeling of total stress,wondering if being dead would be easier.
What ever you do, never raise your voice to your ex,and never ever argue with her. You will have to bite your tongue. Its so easy for them to claim aggressive behaviour,and once they convince the world of that you are f
ked. Avoid Caffcass or whatever its called these days, they never side with the Father. Keep all correspondence with the ex,and try to communicate using text,email,social media-stuff that can used as evidence later. It also allows you to take a deep breath and compose a calm answer when she says something nasty
I went to court with no solicitor, it seriously put her solicitors plan out of order,she was expecting the usual tit for tat lets empty their wallets nonsense.
I just sat their and calmly explained to the judge that we had been to court three times now and my only interest was that my children should be able to have a relationship with their father.
I still have every sympathy for the Fathers for Justice guys,and believe the system in this country is badly wrong and in these supposedly enlightened times family law needs changing.
I cannot understand how any "family" lawyer can sleep at night,they cause so much heartache and emotional turmoil for all parties concerned.
To all of you experiencing this,you have the strength to deal with it,you have to step up,your kids need you to step up,you cannot leave them in a toxic environment too scared to tell mummy they want to see daddy.
Good luck to you all
Found it very difficult today, as she even refused to let me speak to them on the phone. This latest knee jerk reaction is based on the kids seeing an ex boyfriend of hers(who I'm very good mates with) on the weekend, which she too exception to so, naturally, has decided to stop me seeing them. I've kept all the messages and will be collating a file of screenshots etc. that are "damning" to her cause.
There just doesn't seem to be any reasoning with her anymore so think the only route now is court - with or without representation.
I'll let you know how my chat with the solicitor goes on Friday.
Update from me.
I went to see a solicitor on Friday and paid for an "initial meeting". We went through the facts and he gave me some useful advice there and then:
He asked for a sum of money to put on account there and then so he could "get to work". A sum of money that I cannot currently afford. He also quoted me a rough figure for in the event it does go to court. Which I won't be able to afford in the near future.
So the upshot is, I can't afford the solicitor route. Shock.
The next steps for me is to see whether she is going to continue this behaviour. I've told her I'm cancelling the SIM and increasing my monthly child support payments so that they fall in line with what the CSA calculator says I should be paying based on the historic arrangement. She's told me she will be applying to the CSA based on the reduced access.
All in all, position remains the same albeit with me being a little more informed.
I went to see a solicitor on Friday and paid for an "initial meeting". We went through the facts and he gave me some useful advice there and then:
- Don't muddy the waters by including "services" (i.e. in my case the phone) in lieu of payment. Cancel and "services", do a calculation on the CSA website and pay that. No if's or buts.
- Don't retaliate to her messages. Sounds obvious, but it was only when I printed screenshots of all our messages that I really realised how much of a dick I sometimes sound.
- Separate the child support issues and the child arrangement issues. The arrangement of care only has an impact on the child support and not the other way around. If that makes sense.
He asked for a sum of money to put on account there and then so he could "get to work". A sum of money that I cannot currently afford. He also quoted me a rough figure for in the event it does go to court. Which I won't be able to afford in the near future.
So the upshot is, I can't afford the solicitor route. Shock.
The next steps for me is to see whether she is going to continue this behaviour. I've told her I'm cancelling the SIM and increasing my monthly child support payments so that they fall in line with what the CSA calculator says I should be paying based on the historic arrangement. She's told me she will be applying to the CSA based on the reduced access.
All in all, position remains the same albeit with me being a little more informed.
Thought I would give a small, but contrasting (compared to most other outcomes I've read on PH) update to this thread.
So after I saw a solicitor and realised the costs and downstream implications of going to court (with or without legal representation), I sat on things for a while. Every Thursday I asked what time would be best to collect them. Some days she would be fine and I would have them, other days she would stick to her guns.
Roll on a few weeks and we end up having about a 90 minute impromptu phone call where it transpired she was having a particularly tough time in her home life, more specifically with her boyfriend (who is 9 years older than her, him being 36). Anyway, for all of our differences, I'm usually the one she talks to about this sort of thing. Most likely because I've known her for a long time and probably know her better than some her of closest friends and family. The conversation turns to the kids and the debacle of the mobile phone issue where I offer her a replacement phone (Samsung Galaxy S6) as it turned out her existing phone was FUBARd. She accepted and assured me that she would reinstate the existing agreement (So I'd be able to see them every Thurs again
)
She was true to her word and generally, our relationship improved. Not so much at eachother's throats, we were amicable and communicating a little more often and efficiently regarding the kiddos.
The latest events might explain why she was acting the way she was. It transpires that the issues she was having with her boyfriend were a little serious that anyone, included herself, realised. Without going into too much detail, it all came to a head last week, unfortunately involving mild violence in front of, and directed towards, my kiddos (the day before my youngest's birthday too
. She opened up to me the morning after this happened and explained to me what the relationship had been like over the past 12 months. Nothing short of mental abuse. The stereotypical obsessive possessive behavior. Keeping tabs on her every move, who she speaks to, what her Uni schedule was, guilt trips. Take a dart and throw it at a textbook on obsessive possessive behavior and it would have been displayed.
Since then, she's like a different person. She's a lot more relaxed and we generally get on better than I can remember. We communicate regularly regarding the kids as this latest event really shook them up. We're keeping an eye on her (now ex) boyfriend to make sure he stays well away. The Police are aware. It's an unfortunate circumstance but one that has a large silver lining in that it gave her the exit she was always looking for. Me and my GF spent the day at her house with other friends and family for my youngest's birthday party and the atmosphere was the most relaxed I can remember which is great.
I'd always had my suspicion that he was the one trying to pull the strings as he was very paranoid about her having any form of relationship (it was only ever going to be a mother/father one at the most) with me. It's taught me a lot in how to deal with circumstances. Trying to give benefit of the doubt as nearly always, someone is going through a situation you know nothing about.
Anyway, hopefully we can sustain the current status quo
Thank you all for your advice on this thread, Julian especially for offering support outside of the forum. I'm sorry I didn't take it up, I've always felt guilty about accepting people's support when I'm not in a position to pay/return the favour.
So after I saw a solicitor and realised the costs and downstream implications of going to court (with or without legal representation), I sat on things for a while. Every Thursday I asked what time would be best to collect them. Some days she would be fine and I would have them, other days she would stick to her guns.
Roll on a few weeks and we end up having about a 90 minute impromptu phone call where it transpired she was having a particularly tough time in her home life, more specifically with her boyfriend (who is 9 years older than her, him being 36). Anyway, for all of our differences, I'm usually the one she talks to about this sort of thing. Most likely because I've known her for a long time and probably know her better than some her of closest friends and family. The conversation turns to the kids and the debacle of the mobile phone issue where I offer her a replacement phone (Samsung Galaxy S6) as it turned out her existing phone was FUBARd. She accepted and assured me that she would reinstate the existing agreement (So I'd be able to see them every Thurs again
)She was true to her word and generally, our relationship improved. Not so much at eachother's throats, we were amicable and communicating a little more often and efficiently regarding the kiddos.
The latest events might explain why she was acting the way she was. It transpires that the issues she was having with her boyfriend were a little serious that anyone, included herself, realised. Without going into too much detail, it all came to a head last week, unfortunately involving mild violence in front of, and directed towards, my kiddos (the day before my youngest's birthday too
. She opened up to me the morning after this happened and explained to me what the relationship had been like over the past 12 months. Nothing short of mental abuse. The stereotypical obsessive possessive behavior. Keeping tabs on her every move, who she speaks to, what her Uni schedule was, guilt trips. Take a dart and throw it at a textbook on obsessive possessive behavior and it would have been displayed. Since then, she's like a different person. She's a lot more relaxed and we generally get on better than I can remember. We communicate regularly regarding the kids as this latest event really shook them up. We're keeping an eye on her (now ex) boyfriend to make sure he stays well away. The Police are aware. It's an unfortunate circumstance but one that has a large silver lining in that it gave her the exit she was always looking for. Me and my GF spent the day at her house with other friends and family for my youngest's birthday party and the atmosphere was the most relaxed I can remember which is great.
I'd always had my suspicion that he was the one trying to pull the strings as he was very paranoid about her having any form of relationship (it was only ever going to be a mother/father one at the most) with me. It's taught me a lot in how to deal with circumstances. Trying to give benefit of the doubt as nearly always, someone is going through a situation you know nothing about.
Anyway, hopefully we can sustain the current status quo
Thank you all for your advice on this thread, Julian especially for offering support outside of the forum. I'm sorry I didn't take it up, I've always felt guilty about accepting people's support when I'm not in a position to pay/return the favour.
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