Cashless society ?

[J4CKO]

I seem to be using cash less and less, got paid for a couple of things in cash and am having to remember to use it but suddenly it seems arcane, cumbersome and slow. Having to have enough cash, pockets of change, must be a nuisance for businesses handling cash, and a security risk.

I read a Daily Mail article, I do enjoy the comments, it was about a company that provides cash machines putting up their charges, so lots of comments about greedy banks even though it’s not a bank, load more about the government trying to control and observe every transaction.

I can sort of see the governments angle, they tax us to pay for services and cash allows easy tax evasion for individuals and businesses that deal in cash. Still have a takeaway locally that only takes cash.

So, big brother or convenience?

What do you still use cash for ?

My local now takes cards, though that can leave an audit trail for the wife... the works canteen now takes a cards, most shopping is via the net, groceries paid for by card, fuel paid for by card, meals out paid for by card, maybe give a cash tip.

It’s my parents and her mum that still use cash as doing a bank transfer or Paypal isn’t going to happen.

So cash, basically is the older generations and those not paying as much tax as they perhaps should ?

[J4CKO]

I was thinking that another benefit of going cashless is hygiene.

You get your item, withdraw your card and waft it over a small device which beep, no need to touch anything.

Compare and contrast with a selection of grubby coins and notes that have been through thousands if not millions of hands and into your hand, then your pocket.

Dirtier than a Daily Mail link !

Stevie V had it bang on (ask your dad....)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-26...


Am sure the new plastic notes are a way to promote going cashless as they are horrible to handle compared to the old ones.


Did use cash at the weekend, my wife demanded some change to put into an RSPB collection, just happened to have three quid or so in change.

Used a twenty to get some drinks at a pub, only because had a load of cash I was trying to get rid of, I didnt tip as the guy was a right grumpy bd, the White Eagle in Rhoscolyn for reference, not exactly a cheery welcome.

As for those saying it makes spending too easy, if you get your head round the fact whatever method you use its at the same currency coming from the same source, then its easy, plus you get full details on your internet banking statement, "13/04/2019 Pub £17.34" or whatever, rather than £2.66 in coins in your pocket, wondering where it went.

[J4CKO]

bloomen said:

J4CKO said:

I was thinking that another benefit of going cashless is hygiene.

One of life's great pleasures is filling a Coinstar machine with a mountain of change which I do for a relative every now and then. However by the end of the process my hands have gone a weird shade of dark grey...

Yeah, pretty grubby most change.

It would be interesting to see if the move to cashless does have an effect on the transmission of colds and stomach bugs, I bet someone who is averse to hand washing who is ill can infect plenty of people in a day handing back change, with the best will in the world its like passing a disease sample round. But may not pan out like that.

There are always knock ons, positive and negative with stuff like this, for example LED bulbs are a great safety benefit, less likely to cause a fire due to less heat generated, wont burn you plus I remember changing traditional bulbs every weekend pretty much, so getting a chair, standing on it, or stepladders and changing a bulb. Now as a grown man I should be able to change a bulb without mortal injury but every time you stand on a chair to reach a bulb its a small risk, multiple that by millions of folk having to swap bulbs, has that meant that less fall off stuff ?

[J4CKO]

Superflow said:

Frimley111R said:

My hairdressers/barbers is the same. The owner cringes when i come in and say 'Have you got a card machine yet??' They say it's too expensive but not as expensive as not having customers who only have cards. She's mad but she knows she'll have to give in soon. Small/old school business mentality.

Cash in hand:

That's why they don’t want a card machine.

My local Chinese is the same, I have suggested it but may as well have introduced string theory to the dog based on the reaction. Same to the Indian takeaway, went in a few times when they opened and the food was alright and the owner affable, but didnt take cards, he clocked me walking past and asked why he hadn't seen me in a while and I said its because you dont take cards. I was quite open, if we want an Indian and haven't got cash, usually fifty plus quid if all the kids are home then we order from the place that takes cards, he countered by suggested the newsagents over the road does cashback. They have now finally got a card machine.

The Chinese place though, no chance, I suspect (happy to be proven wrong) their business model is entirely based on cash and a set of books that could win the Booker prize for fiction, £8 for spare ribs, bones in some goop, costs maybe £1.50 to £2 to make, canned chicken in slop with a few bits of veg for £7/8, some boiled rice £2.50. She did say that the card charges were too high, so when you are selling at their kind of markup, you cant absorb the minimal charge that other places seem to do ? Never really hear of minimums now. Suspect that the cash being banked isnt a problem as all household stuff will be done with cash where possible, the kids they employ get paid cash in hand out of the till (one of mine worked there)

[J4CKO]

In trouble with the missus now, she needed some cash for her PT session at the gym and I didnt leave the fifty quid I carry in my rucksack for emergencies.

PT needs to have a card machine, will prob take a bank transfer, but she doesnt do bank transfers to anyone else, doesn't have the little card reader so gets me to do it.

Like my mum and dad, both can use the internet but have never ordered anything so get me to do it, I dont mind but its so easy to do. So I order something, sometimes a fair amount and then get paid back in cash, her mum does the same so its easy to end up £300 down with a bile pile of notes you then invariably forget to use in favour of a card as otherwise I have to go to the bank to pay it in which is an hour out of my day to walk in, wait in the queue etc.

I think I am going to wean people off relying on me for transactions !

I am sure they think that because I work in IT its my kind of thing, not really, its just basic admin type stuff.



I saw someone on the DM on a similar thread advocating returning to paying everyone in cash like back in the fifties, I remember my dad coming home with cash, it worked up to the seventies and into the eighties but nowadays that would be a weird move. Comments like that do make you think about how the Brexit vote went for some, the world changes, you get left behind a bit and see a chance to perhaps go back to how things were, not after a debate of the whys and wherefores but I bet some voted based on that mindset.

It annoys me when people wilfully make a point of saying its all too complicated for them, like anything, we need to put some effort in to get the rewards, or even just to keep pace.

Cash is on the wane as that makes sense for most of the people most of the time.

[J4CKO]

bad company said:

Henners said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

The guy who pushes a trolley of home-made brownies around our office (and other local offices) on a Friday can accept card payment (via an iZettle).

If he can factor this into his business model, the only excuse for other places not doing it I can see is to hide income from the taxman.

Why do they need an excuse to decline taking cards when it costs them money to do so?

Good luck to your cake man but I don’t see why others should have to follow suit.

They don’t need an excuse as such, but to deliberately exclude a growing customer base in favour of a declining one isn’t exactly a good medium to long term business plan.

I agree but lots of businesses chose to do just that.

Many of my tradesmen still want cash. When I had a leaking roof a couple of years ago the roofers would only come out for cash. Didn’t leave me a lot of choice.

We had a load of work done and it was basically cash, not because we got a discount, just that is what he demanded. He liked to regale us with tales of his general awesomeness and how many motorbikes he has, his holiday home and how many fantastic holidays he has.

I would love to see his tax return, a mate of mine has another tradesman friend a who boasts about how much he makes and how little tax he pays.

I know someone who works for themself, earns pretty well yet gets all sorts of benefits as declared income after expenses etc etc is pretty low, so not only is HMRC being done out of tax revenue, the government provides money to make up the declared income to a living wage.

They wont be unique, there will be legions of folk paying little tax, getting the handouts yet spending day to day using untaxed cash income for stuff like groceries, fuel etc. It makes a huge difference.

If someone is earning 50k PAYE vs someone earning 50k self employed, handling cash and not fully declaring it, then getting benefits, then a £100 weekly shop will use twice as much of their disposable income. I try and think of it at a national level rather than getting annoyed at individuals or jealous that they get away with anything and perhaps make more money, it shouldn't be a case of if I cant do it nobody should get away with it, it should be that all people working or earning should make a proportionate contribution.

We do what we can to survive and be comfortable but cash becoming less prevalent may even the field a bit.

[J4CKO]

Kermit power said:

Budflicker said:

You should spend more time on learning to write in correct English, rather than worrying about other peoples payment terms.

Don't worry poppet, I'm sure you'll get laid one day!



Or maybe you're just getting stressed about seeing your sex life on your bank statement if certain people stop taking cash?

Apart from the grammar aspects, about which I think, if you can read it, its near enough for a bloody forum post, that about the oldest profession is a very good point.

I have never visited such an establishment but I cant imagine, for married patrons, that "Madame Blam's Sex Palace" appearing on the joint account statement could be considered less than ideal.

So, the sex industry, I suspect it largely based on spending your wad in more ways than one

Also, suspect to a degree that the breakdown for cashless is

PAYE - Bring it on - we are fked tax wise anyway, may as well have the convenience

Self Employed - Oh, er, actually, hang on, the pensioners and the poorer clients like to pay us cash, its a service...

Also, suppose that prices may go up for certain things if certain businesses are fully introduced into the whole world of paying full tax.

[J4CKO]

Cold said:

Frank7 said:

//Naughty//

As stated more than once, cash is good if your intentions are nefarious. Be that avoiding tax or shagging your cousin.
Far be it from me to suggest there's a link between the two.

Yeah, the neighbour chap needs to stop "pulling randoms" and taking them out for meals, that's his approach to marriage being wrong rather than the fault of the technology !

[J4CKO]

bad company said:

craigjm said:

I have not used cash in a pub for a good ten years and newspapers are dead unless they are free in reality

You did well using cards for pub drinks 10 years ago.

Newspapers dead, really:-

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/national-newspaper-...

Yes newspapers and cash have been declining in use but they ain’t dead yet by a long way.

I avoid paying by card in my local, only because we have a joint bank account (well mine is joint, hers is her own but that's another story) and it says something like "Farmers Arms - £4.30", then again "Farmers Arms - £4.30" and I get "I thought you said you just nipped in for A pint", apart from the fact its a figure of speech and I am a grown man if I want two whole pints of beer ! I will have them !

Anyway, it was three, Stella Steve got me one as well

Newspapers, only people I see with one nowadays tend to be older folk who perhaps dont do internet or more likely, dont do smartphones.

I mean, come on, huge papery thing that has out of date news in from yesterday vs a device that updates in real time ?

[J4CKO]

The Mad Monk said:

J4CKO said:

Used a twenty to get some drinks at a pub, only because had a load of cash I was trying to get rid of, I didnt tip as the guy was a right grumpy bd, the White Eagle in Rhoscolyn for reference, not exactly a cheery welcome.

Are you British?

It is not normal practice to tip bar staff in Britain! Grumpy, cheerful, or otherwise.

I do, worked in pubs and bars and I really used to appreciate the tips.

[J4CKO]

The Mad Monk said:

J4CKO said:

The Mad Monk said:

J4CKO said:

Used a twenty to get some drinks at a pub, only because had a load of cash I was trying to get rid of, I didnt tip as the guy was a right grumpy bd, the White Eagle in Rhoscolyn for reference, not exactly a cheery welcome.

Are you British?

It is not normal practice to tip bar staff in Britain! Grumpy, cheerful, or otherwise.

I do, worked in pubs and bars and I really used to appreciate the tips.

Well, you never got one from me.

As regrets go, that isnt going to trouble me.

[J4CKO]

Just went down to our canteen to get lunch with two colleagues, two of us wafted out cards, the other who said he doesnt pay for anything with a card if he can help it "Cash is king" he said, took several times longer as he produced a fresh twenty and got basically all of the tills change.

£2.84 paid on card, job done, not got a pocket of change.

Other chap said his local had gone cashless after three robberies, I did ask where the hell he lives but its actually in Didsbury, quite a nice area, just its near Manchester.

I am not sure why anyone gets all spendy on a card as it isnt cash, if anything, for me seeing the transaction pop up in all its glory highlights exactly where my money is going, rather than getting £100 out and then wondering where the hell it all went.

Got some cash as we had an urge for a dirty Chinese meal on Sunday night, was meant to be a healthy home made stir fry but we both decided, after a bottle of Champage (Mumm as well, thats how we roll - once or twice a year) we fancied some MSG, lumps of "meat" in stuff, tasty bones, greasy rice and red sauce that make you cough. I was despatched, went and diligently bought a Picnic bar from the McColls shop to enable cashback (otherwise its like two quid from their machine) and then the bloody Chinese was closed ffs, even the really sketchy chippy/Chinese was closed as well, pondered it over a pint in the pub over the road and abandoned it.

So, doubly annoyed with them now, probably off on their yacht !

[J4CKO]

bad company said:

98elise said:

Agreed,

Contactless has made cards easier and quicker to use than cash in every respect.

£30 limit though.

True but most purchases are sub thirty quid, or at least a lot are and the more you spend the more of a check/security you want.

Does feel wrong to us using a card to pay for small purchases, think it was Paul Calf (The Steve Coogan Character) that got annoyed at "A student paying for a bag of chips with a cheque" and it feels similar but obviously its much quicker and its becoming second nature, I love not having to faff about with change.

[J4CKO]

One of our local chippies has just closed after decades, they were cash only, slowly as younger people take over businesses I cant see cash only persisting, except where accounting might not be that rigorous, I suspect that HMRC may target businesses that only deal in cash eventually.

[J4CKO]

Just thought I would dredge this back up to see how we are thinking now, a year and a global pandemic later ?

[J4CKO]

scottyp123 said:

I read an article somewhere very recently where smaller shops were begging for cash, since the lockdown virtually everyone has gone with contactless payments and the card fees are crippling the business. One trader I read about has gone from 340 per month in fees to £400 a month. I'll see if I can find the article.

Edit : It wasn't the BBC I saw it on, I don't read commie news usually but it was the first hit that came up on google.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-e...

I dont get this, how do some place manage to sell small items under a quid via contactless ? Is it down to percentages ?

Surely if your charges have gone up, thats because you are selling more ? Or is that because there is less profit on a delivery and card payment rather than a walk in paying with cash ?

[J4CKO]

bloomen said:

red_slr said:

We ran into our card transaction limit in May (number of card payments we can handle per month). Was something we never thought would happen.

Most members of the public have no idea that businesses have to deal with this kind of stuff (i.e costs).

The fees for going over this limit are considerable per transaction.

I had no idea it could add up to the extent it does. Looks like the difference between making a reasonable living and throwing in the towel.

This is why cashlessness needs resisting. It places an entire economy over a barrel by a tiny handful of companies who know people have nowhere else to turn. That seems like a truly deranged state of affairs to run towards rather than avoid.

Is there a cost to handling cash though ? the time to count and bank it, risk of theft, having to have change available ?

I can see the issues if its costing a fortune for retailers, but I also think a big part is the audit trail.

How many people who run cash businesses declare every penny, its not going to be many, I have known people who make no bones about the fact all their shopping is done from cash that doesn't go through the books, so my food shop is automatically 20 to 40 percent more expensive. It is funny when that person moans about the NHS, Tory cuts and whatever, can say well they can only do what they can do and if your tax return wasnt up for the Booker prize for fiction they might have a few quid more in the pot There are so many declaring low incomes, then all the benefits kick in so a meagre declared income, plus whatever the tax credits are called these days and then a cash income for fun stuff.

A local takeaway, charges £8 for a starter, yet claims they cant make any money if they take cards, our order for two is generally over £30, the place seems to do well. I think what he means is he cant make as much money if there is an audit trail and evidence they took four grand that week, instead of the amount declared, double whammy in having to pay the tax and the card payment charge.

I had a builder do some work, I asked for receipts, some kind of paperwork, none was forthcoming, he did crow about how much he made and how he put all his money into classic motorbikes.

Suppose need to separate genuine hardship because of car payments from not being able to take the piss.

[J4CKO]

craigjm said:

J4CKO said:

I dont get this, how do some place manage to sell small items under a quid via contactless ? Is it down to percentages ?

It’s all down to volumes. Sainsbury’s is happy for you to pay for your Freddo bar on debit card because the amount it puts through the system means it doesn’t make a jot of difference. Small companies can’t do that. They do however save on cash handling costs when people use debit so that needs to be taken into account to make the cost accurate.

Not sure I get it, if a Feddo bar is say 75p, does a small newsagent pay the same percentage as Sainsburys ?

Is it just Sainsburys can just absorb more of that cost due to the £150 shops people do ?

[J4CKO]

egomeister said:

Zoon said:

If you've got nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about.

Except financial repression.

Is that for those who arent as wealthy or do you mean across the board ?

A lot of folk seem to be very mistrustful of the trail electronic payments make and how we will end up as a "Totalitarian state".

What is the ultimate end game here, are the government going to tell us what we can and cant buy, or are they just interested to avoid the cash economy turning and many individuals not making any contribution to tax take and ultimately services ?


The local car boot always makes me wonder, £12 a car, more for traders, bloke collecting wads upon wads of cash, for basically renting out an empty field for a day, hundreds of cars, every Sunday and bank holiday. Nice work if you can get it !

[J4CKO]

Welshbeef said:

J4CKO said:

Is that for those who arent as wealthy or do you mean across the board ?

A lot of folk seem to be very mistrustful of the trail electronic payments make and how we will end up as a "Totalitarian state".

What is the ultimate end game here, are the government going to tell us what we can and cant buy, or are they just interested to avoid the cash economy turning and many individuals not making any contribution to tax take and ultimately services ?


The local car boot always makes me wonder, £12 a car, more for traders, bloke collecting wads upon wads of cash, for basically renting out an empty field for a day, hundreds of cars, every Sunday and bank holiday. Nice work if you can get it !

Are you suggesting fraud for that farmer offering up use of his field? Why on earth would anyone risk jail / struck off as a director and likely reputation alone damage to his main farming business for a bit of cash in hand. You’d have to be extremely desperate to a level similar to Walter White to take that risk.

"Bit of cash in hand"

No, you are right, every single penny will be diligently accounted for and provided to HMRC

So, is it just farmers that are above any kind of tax evasion/avoidance, what about all those upstanding builders that got mentioned unfavorably earlier ?

Tax avoidance/evasion covers the whole of society, how many big names have been caught for it ?

And I have pondered this, when I object to this, I had to ask myself is it that I am really bothered or because as a PAYE monkey I cant get my nose in the trough or dont like seeing people doing well, I think its pretty much the former as it pisses me off when there are so many cuts, austerity and general moaning. I wonder what the tax rate would be, or the improvement to services if everyone paid their whack ?