Discussion
Any adults on here suffer from ADHD? Before the covid-19 out I was the doctors to get the ball rolling to see if I suffer from it. Phoned them this morning to see how things are progressing and its been put on hold for the time being which i guess is understandable.
For my entire life from primary school right through to my adult working life i've had terrible concentration. Can't sit still, constantly fidget, can't focus on a task for any length of time, always got to be on the go doing something different.
Can it be made better or more manageable? Want to go to uni at the ripe old age of 31 but know i'll struggle if i'm still like this. f
ked school up and college (albeit mostly that was me being a lazy bd but I think this did play a part in it).
For my entire life from primary school right through to my adult working life i've had terrible concentration. Can't sit still, constantly fidget, can't focus on a task for any length of time, always got to be on the go doing something different.
Can it be made better or more manageable? Want to go to uni at the ripe old age of 31 but know i'll struggle if i'm still like this. f
ked school up and college (albeit mostly that was me being a lazy bd but I think this did play a part in it).OFORBES said:
My 10 year old was diagnosed with it a few years ago when he became challenging at school. It was a rather nice private school and they suggested he was tested, and then pretty much said that they could no longer support him when his assessment confirmed that he suffered with it.
I had never looked into it before, and hadn't ever really felt the need, but when my eldest was diagnosed I felt I should look into it to educate myself a bit more. I also saw a specialist who confirmed that I also showed signs of having always had it.
- Unless something interests me, I have a short attention span (but then I thought everyone was the same).
- I have always, for as long as I can remember, had a massively overactive brain whereby I will frequently have 5 different things all on my mind at once, or 5 different thoughts running through my brain, meaning I sometimes find it hard to listen and concentrate. It then means that I also sometimes find it hard to tell someone something without going off on a multitude of different tangents and taking ages to get to the point where it actually became a bit of a joke with my wife!
- Due to the overactive brain (and my job) I am absolutely mentally exhausted by the time I come home at night and I normally do not struggle to go to sleep. But when I do struggle to fall sleep, my brain will not let me, it doesn't matter how exhausted I am! And then on the other side of that, if I ever do wake up, my brain switches on immediately and thats then me awake and I cannot go back to sleep. I've never been able to.
- I have always also been a leg jigglier and a constant fidget. I also apparently suffer from restless leg syndrome (RLS) which gives me the worst sensations in my legs mostly at night. Whereby the only way to really describe it is that my legs have claustrophobia and just have to burst out or move uncontrollably. My legs are then pretty much tense the whole time I am asleep which leads to very tired and achey legs.
- I've always been pretty 'wired' as a person and quite highly strung, but I have always put that down to the pressures of work, business and I have always just been 100 miles an hour in the way that I am. I think quickly, and talk quickly and I just like to get stuff done immediately and to a high standard.
I apparently also suffer with anxiety and have mild OCD.
I was a little surprised with my results, but then I've used the confirmation that I had 'ADHD' to support my son, showing him that there is nothing 'wrong' with him and we regularly talk through all the pro's of having a quick brain etc.
He's been bullied a fair bit about being 'different' and he has to take an absolute multitude of tablets every day which breaks my heart when he spends weekends with me - But I try to reassure him with the fact that I've probably always suffered from it, but its never held me back in my life!
Regarding myself, I am not a big believer in labelling things, I took what the specialist said, it made me realise a few things but I didn't do anything about it other than that really.
I tried a change in my diet to try to help my mental fatigue, which helped a bit, and (sounding a bit un-manly) but when my brain gets too busy, I sit for a few minutes and take deep breaths and work hard to concentrate on nothing other than my breathing...
Thanks for the reply. Your symptoms word for word are pretty much what i have.I had never looked into it before, and hadn't ever really felt the need, but when my eldest was diagnosed I felt I should look into it to educate myself a bit more. I also saw a specialist who confirmed that I also showed signs of having always had it.
- Unless something interests me, I have a short attention span (but then I thought everyone was the same).
- I have always, for as long as I can remember, had a massively overactive brain whereby I will frequently have 5 different things all on my mind at once, or 5 different thoughts running through my brain, meaning I sometimes find it hard to listen and concentrate. It then means that I also sometimes find it hard to tell someone something without going off on a multitude of different tangents and taking ages to get to the point where it actually became a bit of a joke with my wife!
- Due to the overactive brain (and my job) I am absolutely mentally exhausted by the time I come home at night and I normally do not struggle to go to sleep. But when I do struggle to fall sleep, my brain will not let me, it doesn't matter how exhausted I am! And then on the other side of that, if I ever do wake up, my brain switches on immediately and thats then me awake and I cannot go back to sleep. I've never been able to.
- I have always also been a leg jigglier and a constant fidget. I also apparently suffer from restless leg syndrome (RLS) which gives me the worst sensations in my legs mostly at night. Whereby the only way to really describe it is that my legs have claustrophobia and just have to burst out or move uncontrollably. My legs are then pretty much tense the whole time I am asleep which leads to very tired and achey legs.
- I've always been pretty 'wired' as a person and quite highly strung, but I have always put that down to the pressures of work, business and I have always just been 100 miles an hour in the way that I am. I think quickly, and talk quickly and I just like to get stuff done immediately and to a high standard.
I apparently also suffer with anxiety and have mild OCD.
I was a little surprised with my results, but then I've used the confirmation that I had 'ADHD' to support my son, showing him that there is nothing 'wrong' with him and we regularly talk through all the pro's of having a quick brain etc.
He's been bullied a fair bit about being 'different' and he has to take an absolute multitude of tablets every day which breaks my heart when he spends weekends with me - But I try to reassure him with the fact that I've probably always suffered from it, but its never held me back in my life!
Regarding myself, I am not a big believer in labelling things, I took what the specialist said, it made me realise a few things but I didn't do anything about it other than that really.
I tried a change in my diet to try to help my mental fatigue, which helped a bit, and (sounding a bit un-manly) but when my brain gets too busy, I sit for a few minutes and take deep breaths and work hard to concentrate on nothing other than my breathing...
I'll give it another week or so with the doctor then call them back to see if they've gotten anywhere with the psychiatric departments and take it from there.
Benbay001 said:
Sounds remarkably similar to me.
But what difference will a diagnosis mean? Its not like being at school, where you would get extra help and extra time in exams.
I dunno if this reply was a great bit of banter? Cos if you finished my original paragraph you'd see that I am indeed going back to school (well hoping too). But what difference will a diagnosis mean? Its not like being at school, where you would get extra help and extra time in exams.
Difference it would make with being diagnosed... a better quality of life hopefully, even ever so slightly. Being able to read 5 pages of a book. Being able to goto the cinema with the missus without "having" to go to the toilet half way through purely for a wander, being able to play with my son for more than 5 minutes before "having" to do the dishes, then half way through the dishes start the hoovering!
Thanks for the replies.
OFORBES said:
I really struggle to read too. Not the ability to actually read, but the ability to concentrate. It can take me an age to read things, and then because of my OCD I want to make sure I've understood everything and so I read, and re-read and read again because every time I try to read a paragraph my mind wanders off onto other thoughts and then I realise that I am reading but not taking any of it in and so I have to start the paragraph again.
Also, totally with you on the washing the dishes, only this morning I was loading the dishwasher and then after unloading half the top half I then started to wipe down the kitchen cupboards!?
I've started a trial with audible and listened to two audiobooks. Quite enjoyed it tbh. Can put the headphones while doing the chores or go for a walk outside etcAlso, totally with you on the washing the dishes, only this morning I was loading the dishwasher and then after unloading half the top half I then started to wipe down the kitchen cupboards!?
Hugo Stiglitz said:
I have ADHD. I was on the waiting list for years, apperently the minimum wait at the moment is 5yrs locally.
I went private in the end.
I always saw my quirks as a bonus and a benefit but I had my coping strategies which was gym daily, cycling (alot) and alot of Judo in the last two years (I've gone from new person to blue belt). I've always been very intensive. Anything I pick up I absolutely focus on obsessively...but that's also partly something else..
Covid happened. I became a hamster spinning in a wheel. Fast, no direction.
Now I'm on Ritalin. I refuse to go a above 18mg.
How's everyone else coping? Live with it and any tips?
5 years!? I hope that's a typo. If not what was the wait for?I went private in the end.
I always saw my quirks as a bonus and a benefit but I had my coping strategies which was gym daily, cycling (alot) and alot of Judo in the last two years (I've gone from new person to blue belt). I've always been very intensive. Anything I pick up I absolutely focus on obsessively...but that's also partly something else..
Covid happened. I became a hamster spinning in a wheel. Fast, no direction.
Now I'm on Ritalin. I refuse to go a above 18mg.
How's everyone else coping? Live with it and any tips?
I went to the docs at the end of Feb, should've received the questionnaires but due to covid/forms lost in post/she forgot to process them I never got them until 3 weeks ago after chasing the reception staff twice. Filled in the forms and handed back the same day. Call from the Dr saying i've been referred to the psychiatric dept. and someone should be in touch within "a few months" - not ideal but can live with that.
Completely at a crossroads career wise now though. Approaching 32. Left my old job in IT (Tech Support) in December for family reasons and because I f
king hated it. Drove for Uber for 4 months then lockdown happened. Got a 9 month contract with Amazon and left after a fortnight (Nothing to do with potential ADHD and everything to do with they are horrible bds). Been in retaul since doing shelve stacking and grocery deliveries. Don't actually mind the job - it just pays next to nothing. Weird that my IT job had a very good salary, decent pension, company car etc and it filled me with dread, i hated pretty much every minute off it. I much prefer this one and it pays a whopping £8.72 an hour! Guess its because i'm always on the go as opposed to being chained to a desk all day.No idea what to do next though. Applied to do a degree in Cyber Security but pulled out. Don't fancy swapping one desk job for another despite the chances off earning some decent cash...
Sa Calobra said:
Anyone else run out of patience quickly at house parties and have to leave?
I can get like that at pubs, bars and restaurants. Very very restless. Always happy to take the empties upto the bar then come back for a sit. Then i'll put a few quid in the puggy and sit back down. Then nip to the toilet even though i'm not needing then sit back down. Then repeat that until 3-4 pints in then when the booze hits and the body and mind calm down I can literally sit their all night sipping on pints feeling pretty fking great - which can be good and bad. Good cos its good for the brain not to be racing at 300mph but bad 'cos i can imagine it can be quite a bad habit to fall into (Thankfully its one i've not fallen into)cashmax said:
Wow, feel like I’m reading my own thread!
I’m 49 and in the last couple of years have taken both my kids (now 13 & 16) to be diagnosed with ADHD. During this process it became apparent that I ticked all the boxes and ended up also being diagnosed at the same time as our youngest.
At School I really struggled to concentrate and despite my parents throwing the kitchen sink at it, including retaking my O’levels, I ended up just scraping through only 3 of them in total.
My mind is always racing and whenever I want something or decide to do something, it has to be now, not tomorrow or next week, but now. I often overthink things and often get anxious.
15 years ago I setup up my own business (b2b ISP) and just like someone above mentioned, I was fortunate enough to employ some very good executors, who would always deliver, so I just had to come up with the ideas and strategy which was the easy bit for me and tell others how to deliver it. The business grew beyond all of our expectations and we went on a proper journey, with me finally checking out when it was sold for a 3rd time earlier this year for just under £200M.
During board meetings I used to really struggle, breaking pencils, fiddling with stuff and would always find an excuse to leave the room for a break. In fact I recall when we were negotiating our 2nd management buyout, I left the room and went and locked myself in the toilet for 15 minutes and played games on my phone on several occasions.
As others have mentioned, I do the same if I’m out for dinner for example, I just need to go and change the scenery for a few minutes every hour or so.
Long haul flights are one thing that fill me with dread, as does sitting on a beach. All our holidays tend to revolve around some sort of activity (skiing, fishing, boating etc) which suits at least 3 of us very well. But my wife’s idea of a relaxing holiday is sitting in the sun with a good book for hours on end, which can cause problems….
I decided to tell my colleagues at work that I was diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago. Amusingly not one of them even raised an eyebrow, they had clearly all figured it out years ago!
Although I was offered medication, after 50 years living with it, I think I’ve found out how to get the best from it and get over the negatives, my friends know me for who I am and I really have no desire to change anything apart from perhaps the anxiety.
Strangely, I really enjoy having a bad cold. It seems to allow my body to slow down and relax, makes me feel calm and finally just idle somehow.
So far as the kids are concerned, the medication has helped them hugely with exams and stuff with them both referring to it as NCT for anyone that has seen the film limitless.
I hate flying. The concept off it doesn't bother me, being stuck in a metal tube 25000ft in the air i'm fine with it. It's being confined to a seat. Also the same regarding beaches and pools - 2hrs with a pint and a book is just about manageable. Anymore than that though and I struggle. Can see Barcelona being a favoruite of ours. Easy flight, she can sit on the beach all day and i can get lost up some alleyways browsing shops and eating and drinking.I’m 49 and in the last couple of years have taken both my kids (now 13 & 16) to be diagnosed with ADHD. During this process it became apparent that I ticked all the boxes and ended up also being diagnosed at the same time as our youngest.
At School I really struggled to concentrate and despite my parents throwing the kitchen sink at it, including retaking my O’levels, I ended up just scraping through only 3 of them in total.
My mind is always racing and whenever I want something or decide to do something, it has to be now, not tomorrow or next week, but now. I often overthink things and often get anxious.
15 years ago I setup up my own business (b2b ISP) and just like someone above mentioned, I was fortunate enough to employ some very good executors, who would always deliver, so I just had to come up with the ideas and strategy which was the easy bit for me and tell others how to deliver it. The business grew beyond all of our expectations and we went on a proper journey, with me finally checking out when it was sold for a 3rd time earlier this year for just under £200M.
During board meetings I used to really struggle, breaking pencils, fiddling with stuff and would always find an excuse to leave the room for a break. In fact I recall when we were negotiating our 2nd management buyout, I left the room and went and locked myself in the toilet for 15 minutes and played games on my phone on several occasions.
As others have mentioned, I do the same if I’m out for dinner for example, I just need to go and change the scenery for a few minutes every hour or so.
Long haul flights are one thing that fill me with dread, as does sitting on a beach. All our holidays tend to revolve around some sort of activity (skiing, fishing, boating etc) which suits at least 3 of us very well. But my wife’s idea of a relaxing holiday is sitting in the sun with a good book for hours on end, which can cause problems….
I decided to tell my colleagues at work that I was diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago. Amusingly not one of them even raised an eyebrow, they had clearly all figured it out years ago!
Although I was offered medication, after 50 years living with it, I think I’ve found out how to get the best from it and get over the negatives, my friends know me for who I am and I really have no desire to change anything apart from perhaps the anxiety.
Strangely, I really enjoy having a bad cold. It seems to allow my body to slow down and relax, makes me feel calm and finally just idle somehow.
So far as the kids are concerned, the medication has helped them hugely with exams and stuff with them both referring to it as NCT for anyone that has seen the film limitless.
Edited by cashmax on Saturday 1st August 09:50
Woodrow Wilson said:
I'm becoming increasingly frustrated. After being forced to work from home since March, the productive "work" part is becoming less and less of a feature, despite/because of the to-do list growing. I just cannot get going, there is no stimulation. Everything, including typing this, becomes a distraction.
Yes, I know I should plan, focus and complete tasks....
How are other people coping?
I don't want to take stimulants.
If its any consolation i'm not.Yes, I know I should plan, focus and complete tasks....
How are other people coping?
I don't want to take stimulants.
I went to the doctors back in Feb about this as I wanted to go back to college/uni and had concerns about my concentration levels and retaining information etc. I started a college course in September - loving the content but struggling massively as expected, probably even more so with it being learn from home. Still on the NHS Scotland Psychiatric waiting list. Expect I will be for some time yet... Covids f
ked me financially and now on minimum wage with some student loan so going private is out the question. For those of you diagnosed later in life, did you need counselling or anything once diagnosed? I'm only 31 so still young but still often get thoughts rattling around in my head of "what could've been". If i was diagnosed earlier i might not have fked up primary school, then properly fked up high school, then kinda fked up college, might not have picked chosen the wrong that i invested 10 years into then quit at the drop of a hat, might not have been looking to re-graduate at the age of 35 years old starting again etc etc. Having midlife crisis type thoughts alot lol.
I did have a laff with my mother. If i get diagnosed (i'm pretty sure i will) i asked her how the hell no-one noticed anything was up. "It was the 90s - in the estate - everyone was a bit loopy"
ked up primary school, then properly fked up high school, then kinda fked up college, might not have picked chosen the wrong that i invested 10 years into then quit at the drop of a hat, might not have been looking to re-graduate at the age of 35 years old starting again etc etc. Having midlife crisis type thoughts alot lol.I did have a laff with my mother. If i get diagnosed (i'm pretty sure i will) i asked her how the hell no-one noticed anything was up. "It was the 90s - in the estate - everyone was a bit loopy"
Found this podcast on ADHD with Adrian Chiles on the Guardian.
Worth a listen.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/nov/13...
Worth a listen.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/nov/13...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I bought a wee dairy and a pen last week that goes with me most places now. Writing things down definitely works for me for day to day stuff. I do chuckle at it sometimes. Yesterdays dairy entries: "buy bagels", "watch Nae Pasaran (iplayer)", "iron work clothes" It's working though. Knowing I can just look at that helps the brain stopping going into super-overdrive.
Teddy Lop said:
Of you who've been diagnosed as adults after living through varying degrees of masked symptoms, what was the process, how much help did you receive, how beneficial was it? Is it worth fighting the nhs for help, if I go private will the help be superior and what kinds of costs am I looking at?
I posted about "lethargy" a few weeks ago and there's some useful other suggestions I'm looking into, but I've been told I have AD by a couple of people qualified to say so and as others say, reading general symptoms lists, and some of the posts on here, is like someone's sitting in my head taking notes. I think other factors like depression are factoring in (although that's chicken and egg) but that AD could be at least an aggravator, if not pivotal. Specifically I struggle with motivation to do certain tasks, and focus to complete them on time. For example, yesterday I start collating invoices (tax return, so rather pressing right now), going through emails (for invoices) I sidetrack into replying to several, then I'm buying materials for jobs, but as the site I'm on for a particular item has a £100 free shipping limit I'm looking at other forthcoming jobs to bulk it up, which then sidetracks me again. I just find it impossible to set and complete one task, but what's insane is I have no ability to multitask either...
I had a dyslexia test quite some years ago (after reading Jackie Stewart's book which was another lightbulb moment) which confirmed it, but in practical terms it's just an expensive but worthless bit of paper, as I've developed coping strategies to get this far while masking it that there's nothing on offer to supplant.
Still waiting on my formal diagnosis, almost a year ago I attended the doctor, referred to psychiatrist middle of August and still waiting. I'll give them 6 months from the letterheaded date then chase them aswell as my GP for an update.I posted about "lethargy" a few weeks ago and there's some useful other suggestions I'm looking into, but I've been told I have AD by a couple of people qualified to say so and as others say, reading general symptoms lists, and some of the posts on here, is like someone's sitting in my head taking notes. I think other factors like depression are factoring in (although that's chicken and egg) but that AD could be at least an aggravator, if not pivotal. Specifically I struggle with motivation to do certain tasks, and focus to complete them on time. For example, yesterday I start collating invoices (tax return, so rather pressing right now), going through emails (for invoices) I sidetrack into replying to several, then I'm buying materials for jobs, but as the site I'm on for a particular item has a £100 free shipping limit I'm looking at other forthcoming jobs to bulk it up, which then sidetracks me again. I just find it impossible to set and complete one task, but what's insane is I have no ability to multitask either...
I had a dyslexia test quite some years ago (after reading Jackie Stewart's book which was another lightbulb moment) which confirmed it, but in practical terms it's just an expensive but worthless bit of paper, as I've developed coping strategies to get this far while masking it that there's nothing on offer to supplant.
I did tell the Uni about it and they were absolutely fantastic. Just mentioned it in a casual conservation and the tutor said drop student support services an email to give them a heads up, you can get an extra 15 minutes for exams or 1 day extension on deadlines etc. Turns out there is alot more support available than that. Fantastic stuff.
Heartworm said:
There is a process called right to choose in England where you can ask to be referred if there are long waiting lists to get diagnosed, alternatively you can go direct with a private supplier have a diagnosis carried out.
I have heard very good things about these people, https://www.psychiatry-uk.com/adhd/, and they will liaise with your GP if you want to go through them, otherwise I think the private diagnosis is £375 or similar. I haven't used these people but have spoken to those diagnosed who have.
I got diagnosed privately in October in Scotland I believe it was , and started medication in early November the same week I started a new job and it had transformed the way I work. I have been diagnosed with combined type so both inattentive and hyperactive, though I only expected it to the the inattentive. It hasn't changed my personality as I have spoken about this with my wife, although she does find it strange that I will pay attention to everything she says rather than drift on to something else half way though a conversation. My boss used to say that if I was working on a problem and a new email came in I would jump straight onto it and not complete my current task, I'm much better at reading the email, finishing what I am doing, then doing whatever is required from the latest. I get more done around the house, and have finished off some long standing jobs that I had never finished, can concentrate on a whole TV programme without wandering off all the time and then having to ask who's that etc.
Who did you use in Scotland? I've been waiting with NHS Lothian now for almost a year as per above...I have heard very good things about these people, https://www.psychiatry-uk.com/adhd/, and they will liaise with your GP if you want to go through them, otherwise I think the private diagnosis is £375 or similar. I haven't used these people but have spoken to those diagnosed who have.
I got diagnosed privately in October in Scotland I believe it was , and started medication in early November the same week I started a new job and it had transformed the way I work. I have been diagnosed with combined type so both inattentive and hyperactive, though I only expected it to the the inattentive. It hasn't changed my personality as I have spoken about this with my wife, although she does find it strange that I will pay attention to everything she says rather than drift on to something else half way though a conversation. My boss used to say that if I was working on a problem and a new email came in I would jump straight onto it and not complete my current task, I'm much better at reading the email, finishing what I am doing, then doing whatever is required from the latest. I get more done around the house, and have finished off some long standing jobs that I had never finished, can concentrate on a whole TV programme without wandering off all the time and then having to ask who's that etc.
Does anyone get bored very easily of 1v1 sports even though they really enjoy them?
Yesterday, tennis, first 2-3 games very close, i'm much fitter than the opposition so wasn't fitness related but the last half hour of our one hour booking I got absolutely hammered. Mind all over the place thinking about remembering to iron work clothes later to what I fancy for tea, concentration levels completely gone. Same with badminton, golf etc.
Yesterday, tennis, first 2-3 games very close, i'm much fitter than the opposition so wasn't fitness related but the last half hour of our one hour booking I got absolutely hammered. Mind all over the place thinking about remembering to iron work clothes later to what I fancy for tea, concentration levels completely gone. Same with badminton, golf etc.
TameRacingDriver said:
I could, potentially, get my old job back but it wouldn't be the same as before, lots of phone calls rather than being physically in the office interacting which I didn't like. It would also seem like a step backwards which bothers me a little. I sometimes do wonder whether I'd be happier doing a job where I wasn't at a desk all day. No idea what though, these days, not without taking a big pay cut.
I took the big pay cut. Left my IT job after 10 years, the desk, the office environment, the deadlines, the pressure, the "what ifs" etc etc. Didn't know at the time, but looking back I was completely burnt out. Hated the job, was miserable as fk but told myself everything was great cos I could afford expensive stuff. Anyway jacked it in and started driving for a well known American global private hire company, you know the one, you book your car via the app. Turns out if you can't sit at a desk for 7hrs a day you're not gonna be able to sit behind the wheel of a car for 10 plus hours a day. Lockdown happened and my short stint of a private hire driver ended (thank f
k).So, worked as a self-employed courier - s
te. Worked at an Amazon warehouse - ste x 100. Worked in retail stacking shelves - ste. Now got a job in a hotel as a linen porter and as work goes it's fking great. Headphones and podcast on, work by myself but with plenty people to talk too, decent perks, extremely flexible, bui graft at times but good for the weight loss. Not saying the correct answer for everyone is to quit a career for a minimum wage job but definitely worked for me. Stress levels, happiness, energy, etc - what a difference since the IT office job.The affordability bit can be tough but it's amazing what can be saved by ditching the German car, Italian clothes and full Sky package, not to mention the savings by prepping breakfast/lunch/dinner. Not nearly as much disposable income as before but turns out the cash and abundance of stuff didn't particularly make me happy...
MikeGTi said:
Regarding treatment, are most people going through the NHS or going private? I contacted my GP over a year ago but was told then that the waiting lists were over a year. Obviously I haven't done anything since then 
I was put on a waiting list Feb 2020 and 3 years later, still waiting.... TBH since seeing a therapist for anxiety alot of my symptoms have gone or are more manageable. Perhaps a misdiagnosis from the Docs..?
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