Which WRX STI- Hawkeye VS Hatch VS 2010 Saloon?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
I have been eye up various Subaru's for a while, but since lock down I haven't been inspired (or able) to test drive any to compare variants. Also most seem to be 100+ miles from where I am in kent!
I like the idea of 4 wheels pushing, with a bias of rear wheel. So far the only options are this or an Xdrive BMW, and I'm a bit bored of BMW now. Also the newer BMWs with xdrive are too bland for my liking.
From guessing, I imagine the hawkeye will be more raw / light, and newer ones will be slightly more refined / less connected. This could be age related or generally the way cars go over the decades. I might be totally wrong?
Before my E46 M3 I had an M135i. Whilst this was great, the sound was very muted and I somewhat missed the rawness of an older car. The M135i has electronic steering, very clever adaptable suspension, almost silky smooth over bumps and likes of which is great, but almost too luxurious and not sporty enough!? That being said, I loved the twin scroll turbo, so would be very interested in another twin scroll, which variants they cover is a bit beyond me at the moment as I'm finding it quite hard to find a clear different between the variants / years. I guess I could always swap a single turbo out for a twinscroll.
Shifting from the M135i to the E46 (and convertible factor) was really nice. That being said, now I'm feeling a bit fatigued with the rattling and general noise of the E46, so thinking of something slightly more refined and hard top. That being said, anything hardtop will naturally be more refined due to less clanking etc from the rag top.
Sounds crazy, but when you look at my needs (manual, AWD with rear bias) then the options become pretty limited within my price bracket (£10-15k). So it maybe that I own different variants of WRX STI over time to match my need for lightness / rawness / refinement.
I have a wife and a 2 year old kid to 'ship around' so this is a factor I will always need to keep happy. That being said they love the E46 and the little boy thinks my wifes hatch is ok too, but much prefers the E46. It might be to pillarless design and lower doors which gives him better visibility from the back.
My wife's car (2010 Mazda 3) sits in a much more upright seating position, and higher off the ground which I'm liking a lot at the moment. Especially given that I'm mostly doing A/B roads.... Is the seating position / ground clearance roughly the same throughout all the years I'm interested in?
Thoughts welcome, as I'm still really in two minds about things, but really want to own one before they start disappearing from the roads.
Am I also right in saying that most of the variants <2014 will roughly hold their price?
Best,
T
I have been eye up various Subaru's for a while, but since lock down I haven't been inspired (or able) to test drive any to compare variants. Also most seem to be 100+ miles from where I am in kent!
I like the idea of 4 wheels pushing, with a bias of rear wheel. So far the only options are this or an Xdrive BMW, and I'm a bit bored of BMW now. Also the newer BMWs with xdrive are too bland for my liking.
From guessing, I imagine the hawkeye will be more raw / light, and newer ones will be slightly more refined / less connected. This could be age related or generally the way cars go over the decades. I might be totally wrong?
Before my E46 M3 I had an M135i. Whilst this was great, the sound was very muted and I somewhat missed the rawness of an older car. The M135i has electronic steering, very clever adaptable suspension, almost silky smooth over bumps and likes of which is great, but almost too luxurious and not sporty enough!? That being said, I loved the twin scroll turbo, so would be very interested in another twin scroll, which variants they cover is a bit beyond me at the moment as I'm finding it quite hard to find a clear different between the variants / years. I guess I could always swap a single turbo out for a twinscroll.
Shifting from the M135i to the E46 (and convertible factor) was really nice. That being said, now I'm feeling a bit fatigued with the rattling and general noise of the E46, so thinking of something slightly more refined and hard top. That being said, anything hardtop will naturally be more refined due to less clanking etc from the rag top.
Sounds crazy, but when you look at my needs (manual, AWD with rear bias) then the options become pretty limited within my price bracket (£10-15k). So it maybe that I own different variants of WRX STI over time to match my need for lightness / rawness / refinement.
I have a wife and a 2 year old kid to 'ship around' so this is a factor I will always need to keep happy. That being said they love the E46 and the little boy thinks my wifes hatch is ok too, but much prefers the E46. It might be to pillarless design and lower doors which gives him better visibility from the back.
My wife's car (2010 Mazda 3) sits in a much more upright seating position, and higher off the ground which I'm liking a lot at the moment. Especially given that I'm mostly doing A/B roads.... Is the seating position / ground clearance roughly the same throughout all the years I'm interested in?
Thoughts welcome, as I'm still really in two minds about things, but really want to own one before they start disappearing from the roads.
Am I also right in saying that most of the variants <2014 will roughly hold their price?
Best,
T
vxr2010 said:
modern cars can be very competent and fast but also can be boring as they do every thing for you , and require little input , older school cars ie scooby also in my case the monaro require more from the driver and are much more involving , i would rather have a slower more involving car than a quicker one , my preference of four wheel drive and quick is a forester sti but it’s horses for courses , quite a few imprezas out there , jdm is a good route twin scroll sti 2 litre so you get less lag , brining in cars can be pricy at the mo as exchange rates are not good , so look for a fresh import
Importing a car sounds like fun! Could anyone recommend the best sites for this? I like the idea of being able to change the power from front to back. How far can you go back in time to get this tech?
vxr2010 said:
Torque gt , harlow jap autos , both often have stock in , they are two good ones there are many others , currently it’s expensive importing due to exchange rate , i would see what’s in the uk now , if you are talking about dccd then it started with the classic subaru’s around 96 , the dccd is more based on driving conditions ie snow gravel rather than a wish to be more rwd as you need the correct setting for a condition if not risk of damage
Ok nice thanks. I think the youtuber Engineering Explained has done something on the system so will have a poke.Good to hear they stared in 96 as this is something which really interest me. ATM I'm seeing the engines and general tech (bar mod cons) havnt really chagned since 2000, so it seems more of a case of choosing my style and the whole old vs new experience.
TBH I have been driving older cars more recently so might go for a ~2011 saloon as it will be a nice change.
Might start looking up specific specs and the likes of.
MDMA . said:
A lot of the specific Subaru forums are now dead, unless you browse the US sites. If looking for the newer saloon, I'd get a JDM one. Spec C would be my choice. But you'll be looking at 20k for a nice one now.
How comes JDM if you dont mind me asking? The 2L twin scroll?I'm tempted on asking my local indy scuby to see if he can add a twin scroll to the uk 2.5L
MDMA . said:
Few things. "Generally" a better car/condition. Not spent the last 10 years over here. More collectable, better resale, better all round car really. I'd always try and buy JDM if a Subaru.
Ok good to know! I first have to sell my E46 M3, so that could take a while, but pretty sure this is my next car as ticks so many boxes so far.Pre covid, are there many meets? Japfest or something rings a bell?
jsf said:
The only way to go more RWD is to remove the front drive and fit a centre diff that only drives the rear. It's pointless unless you want to build a drift car Impreza.
The torque split is derived from the centre diff design, it's basically two types of diff in one unit, firstly an open diff with a mechanical ratio of 33:66 and then a clutch pack that applies a resistive force between the front/rear outputs, with no clutch preload you get the 33:66 output, with clutch clamping applied the output varies up to a max of 50:50 when the clutch pack is fully clamped.
You increase the clutch pack load by increasing current in an electromagnet that pulls the plates tighter. On the later diff units from the hawkeye onwards, they increased the static preload on the clutch pack and also made some changes to the torque sensing and clutch plate design, which is why they have a higher base front torque rate.
If you manage to get enough torque going to the rear wheels, you can break rear tyre traction and have the car driving like a RWD car with the centre diff open, but that takes some skill to drive like that under control. It's not the fast way to drive but it's fun. The way to really get these cars to feel alive is to use weight transfer and throttle application to induce a slightly rear biased all wheel drift.
OK very interesting. The torque split is derived from the centre diff design, it's basically two types of diff in one unit, firstly an open diff with a mechanical ratio of 33:66 and then a clutch pack that applies a resistive force between the front/rear outputs, with no clutch preload you get the 33:66 output, with clutch clamping applied the output varies up to a max of 50:50 when the clutch pack is fully clamped.
You increase the clutch pack load by increasing current in an electromagnet that pulls the plates tighter. On the later diff units from the hawkeye onwards, they increased the static preload on the clutch pack and also made some changes to the torque sensing and clutch plate design, which is why they have a higher base front torque rate.
If you manage to get enough torque going to the rear wheels, you can break rear tyre traction and have the car driving like a RWD car with the centre diff open, but that takes some skill to drive like that under control. It's not the fast way to drive but it's fun. The way to really get these cars to feel alive is to use weight transfer and throttle application to induce a slightly rear biased all wheel drift.
I would like to think I can tell where traction is on the limit before loosing. Sometimes I play with that line but tbh I have only ever done very minor drifts in sensible(ish) situations e. G. Going uphill corners where slowing down isn't an issue(ish).
I have never done all out donuts etc as always Road driving and never really near a car park or likes of that is appropriate.
For what it's worth I do unhealthy amounts of racing sims (via pc wheel etc) and the setup I always go for is 70-90% power to the back. This greatly depends on tyre width, weight distribution and power. But I have found in games and real life that the above factors play such a massive part of the feel of the car. Also I find its just as much about how a car reacts to track loss as it does to keeping it perfectly in shape.
My lsd on the m3 is much more predictedable in comparison to other cars.
That being said I love the characteristics of the front end pulling the car back on track (AWD) whilst the back maintains a steady slide. I have never experienced this being the wheel on an AWD with rear bias.
That being said the xdrive on a 3 series still felt very fwd in comparison. But then again 50/50 weight distribution would I guess naturally provide more traction to the back!? Probably chuck tyres on the back also.
Does the scuby have lsd each end? How does it manage this traction loss?
Also I'm assuming you need more than stock 300bhp to light up the back end as I think stock wheels are a square 240mm which is quite big! 960mm of traction!
That being said a lot of weight is on the front so xyz calculation could make you say it feels as if 80% power to the back based on weight distribution of the car in comparison to bmw!?
Not a Diesel said:
Echo that. Get it bought.
Had loads of performance cars for me & the wife over the last 30 years.
Had 2005 UK STI for coming up to 7 years almost double the length of time anything else.
Browse the internet daily for potential replacements. Then I drive it & say "we are never selling this"
That certainly is reassuring Had loads of performance cars for me & the wife over the last 30 years.
Had 2005 UK STI for coming up to 7 years almost double the length of time anything else.
Browse the internet daily for potential replacements. Then I drive it & say "we are never selling this"
Morning all,
I'm pleased to say I got hold of a 2006 hawkeye.
Safe to say, never before have I driven a car that reflects exactly what I want in a car.
Sure I have had great fun with various Bmws and other bits, but this car really does feel incredible!
There is something magic about the drive train. It almost feels like it has rear steering of kinds!
The grip is phenomenal and turn is incredible.
The feel of the steering is probably one of my favourite things. They way it seamlessly glides over bad roads and curves through the corners. Sure its pretty bumpy, but by the same token the suspension and chasis feels so robust. When it recovers from a bump its done very quickly and is ready for the next one. Bmws I find try to keep on doing things (post bump) which give a more swaying feeling. Not sure how to describe but essentially it feels less connected but more luxurious.
Only slight downside is when you're approaching an apex of a corner and apply power it can push forward rather than into the corner (understeer) but I counter that by not really putting power then but post corner. At that point the car seems to somewhat crap itself into the next corner / straight.
Such a machine though, really confident inspiring!
Just wondering, does my 2006 have hydraulic steering?
Best
T
I'm pleased to say I got hold of a 2006 hawkeye.
Safe to say, never before have I driven a car that reflects exactly what I want in a car.
Sure I have had great fun with various Bmws and other bits, but this car really does feel incredible!
There is something magic about the drive train. It almost feels like it has rear steering of kinds!
The grip is phenomenal and turn is incredible.
The feel of the steering is probably one of my favourite things. They way it seamlessly glides over bad roads and curves through the corners. Sure its pretty bumpy, but by the same token the suspension and chasis feels so robust. When it recovers from a bump its done very quickly and is ready for the next one. Bmws I find try to keep on doing things (post bump) which give a more swaying feeling. Not sure how to describe but essentially it feels less connected but more luxurious.
Only slight downside is when you're approaching an apex of a corner and apply power it can push forward rather than into the corner (understeer) but I counter that by not really putting power then but post corner. At that point the car seems to somewhat crap itself into the next corner / straight.
Such a machine though, really confident inspiring!
Just wondering, does my 2006 have hydraulic steering?
Best
T
Elatino1 said:
I assume you bought a 2.5L STi? They are great cars and any understeer can be altered using various mods or driving techniques. My Spec C type RA is very neutral into corners and power oversteers on exit when driven that way, I find tyre types and pressures have a big impact on that.
The road spec toyos it was wearing when I bought it really are a World away from the R888Rs it is wearing now.
Yes got myself a WRX STIThe road spec toyos it was wearing when I bought it really are a World away from the R888Rs it is wearing now.
Just from looking online, seeing things about the 6 speed gearbox and other bits made me want to go for the STI
I find normally with cars, it's often best to go for a cheaper car (as a whole) but get the top model. That way you often get a plethora of nice bits and pieces.... brakes, gears, mod cons etc.
In response to the understeer, as suggested, I think I need to adjust my driving habits. I have been RWD for perhaps 5 years now (as main fun car at least), so I guess I need to adjust myself. To be honest, when it comes to flinging the car around, I think I will need to do a track day to build confidence in this arena before I get to confident on road. Perhaps I could play around with a large roundabout of kinds, normally safer than B road twists.
Tyres wise, very interesting point. Luckily all tyres have >5mm all round, so not sure I want to change them just yet. I belive I They are Toyos on front and Eagle F1s on back, but might be the other way round. Not sure.
Am I imaging things or is there more room in the back on the hawkeye in comparison to the blob?
jsf said:
theog87 said:
Yes got myself a WRX STI
Just from looking online, seeing things about the 6 speed gearbox and other bits made me want to go for the STI
I find normally with cars, it's often best to go for a cheaper car (as a whole) but get the top model. That way you often get a plethora of nice bits and pieces.... brakes, gears, mod cons etc.
In response to the understeer, as suggested, I think I need to adjust my driving habits. I have been RWD for perhaps 5 years now (as main fun car at least), so I guess I need to adjust myself. To be honest, when it comes to flinging the car around, I think I will need to do a track day to build confidence in this arena before I get to confident on road. Perhaps I could play around with a large roundabout of kinds, normally safer than B road twists.
Tyres wise, very interesting point. Luckily all tyres have >5mm all round, so not sure I want to change them just yet. I belive I They are Toyos on front and Eagle F1s on back, but might be the other way round. Not sure.
Am I imaging things or is there more room in the back on the hawkeye in comparison to the blob?
The steering wheel on the Hawkeye is 1660mm from the rear bulkhead.Just from looking online, seeing things about the 6 speed gearbox and other bits made me want to go for the STI
I find normally with cars, it's often best to go for a cheaper car (as a whole) but get the top model. That way you often get a plethora of nice bits and pieces.... brakes, gears, mod cons etc.
In response to the understeer, as suggested, I think I need to adjust my driving habits. I have been RWD for perhaps 5 years now (as main fun car at least), so I guess I need to adjust myself. To be honest, when it comes to flinging the car around, I think I will need to do a track day to build confidence in this arena before I get to confident on road. Perhaps I could play around with a large roundabout of kinds, normally safer than B road twists.
Tyres wise, very interesting point. Luckily all tyres have >5mm all round, so not sure I want to change them just yet. I belive I They are Toyos on front and Eagle F1s on back, but might be the other way round. Not sure.
Am I imaging things or is there more room in the back on the hawkeye in comparison to the blob?
The steering wheel on the Blobeye is 1502mm from the rear bulkhead.
So the same driver will have the front seat 158mm further forward for the same driving position, giving more rear legroom in the rear for the rear seat passenger. That of course means weight distribution of the driver is worse in the Hawkeye.
Handling wise, being patient with the throttle is important, 0.5s makes a difference, most people hit the throttle too soon and don't let the car rotate, this is in any car, but as an AWD car has front drive, it's more noticeable. As standard the front camber is less than the rear, just adding more front camber helps change the basic balance, with stock suspension this usually requires an extra set of camber bolts in the front strut mount.
If you have different tyres front/rear, you are screwing up the basic handling, don't do it. If you cant afford to buy a pair of tyres, put the best on the front. It's not just the grip that is the issue, the sidewall stiffness really counts on these cars, the car was designed with a very stiff sidewall tyre (Bridgestone RE070), so when replacing them use the highest sidewall stiffness tyres of the range you prefer.
Thanks for info regarding front tyres
These the only ones for the front or are others good?
Would increasing rim size improve this? Ideally I want to keep the originals.
jsf said:
I don't understand your question on front tyres.
I have always used the original wheel size of 17" x 8", i have original OEM and also some Speedline wheels, the Speedlines are genuine Group N wheels with ET48, OEM are ET53, so the speedlines widen the track 10mm. I wouldn't go any larger an offset than this as you are moving the contact patch relative to the steering geometry which has an effect on tyre feedback and self centre.
My car is JDM spec, so the tyres are wider 235/45x17, UK uses 225/45x17.
Lots of people use 18" wheels and lower profile tyres, i don't think that's a good move on the road, i didn't even use a bigger diameter wheel on sprints or Time Attack as the sidewall flex adds some benefits in the traction zones.
I was thinking bigger rims, lower profile and harder tyre wall edge could help out, but I dont know much about these things tbh. I have always used the original wheel size of 17" x 8", i have original OEM and also some Speedline wheels, the Speedlines are genuine Group N wheels with ET48, OEM are ET53, so the speedlines widen the track 10mm. I wouldn't go any larger an offset than this as you are moving the contact patch relative to the steering geometry which has an effect on tyre feedback and self centre.
My car is JDM spec, so the tyres are wider 235/45x17, UK uses 225/45x17.
Lots of people use 18" wheels and lower profile tyres, i don't think that's a good move on the road, i didn't even use a bigger diameter wheel on sprints or Time Attack as the sidewall flex adds some benefits in the traction zones.
I really like current set up, so I think I will just change the tyres later in the year. Seems a bit of a waste to change them now tbh as I'm mainly doing family driving.
plenty said:
On the road you always want the smallest wheels that will fit over your brakes. The only benefit of a bigger wheel is improved steering response due to lower-profile tyres, and even that’s marginal and more dependent on sidewall stiffness.
Big wheels and thin tyres are heavier and less compliant...for show not go
Hmmm very interesting. I thought this might be the case!Big wheels and thin tyres are heavier and less compliant...for show not go
So the snow has been interesting hasn't it!
Getting things from the shops / going sledging and the likes of has meant a few opportunities to get out and play around a bit.
As mentioned, the balance of the car is very interesting! As mentioned 1001 times, once you get out of of apex of the corner and add a little power the back really comes out. This is something I have felt beforehand, but with the lack of traction, it becomes much more evident how the weight shifts around and how the AWD corresponds to that. Really surprised how rear bias it has been in the icy / snow! I'm starting to feel that in dry / perfect conditions the car is almost indestructible, you almost need bad weather to play around haha.
I was going to my local farm shop which required a country road / steep hill. It's funny how it seems like the car has a lot more grip going up Icey hills in comparison to going down he hills!
Going down, just to test the nature of the car, I turn slightly left/right and applied too much brakes to bring the back out and slide down a touch. Managed to get a full anti lock a few times hahah. But once again, just releasing the brakes and bringing home is very predictable. But as mentioned before, going up the same hill seems like it's not even stretching. No idea why it's that way around, but maybe the tyres are doing more 'digging' when moving in comparison to passively sliding haha.
I 'had to find the right parking spot'. Took ages lols... anyways I was keeping the car generally on point with a bit of wiggle around the corners and after a while I smelt slight burning smell. Nothing major, just a tad when I stopped. Could that be the 'clutch' on the centre diff (whatever it's called) or handbrake? Perhaps maybe slight clutch smell, but obviously not a massive amount of power was added so cant see why that would be under stress. Did smell a touch like clutch though!?
Getting things from the shops / going sledging and the likes of has meant a few opportunities to get out and play around a bit.
As mentioned, the balance of the car is very interesting! As mentioned 1001 times, once you get out of of apex of the corner and add a little power the back really comes out. This is something I have felt beforehand, but with the lack of traction, it becomes much more evident how the weight shifts around and how the AWD corresponds to that. Really surprised how rear bias it has been in the icy / snow! I'm starting to feel that in dry / perfect conditions the car is almost indestructible, you almost need bad weather to play around haha.
I was going to my local farm shop which required a country road / steep hill. It's funny how it seems like the car has a lot more grip going up Icey hills in comparison to going down he hills!
Going down, just to test the nature of the car, I turn slightly left/right and applied too much brakes to bring the back out and slide down a touch. Managed to get a full anti lock a few times hahah. But once again, just releasing the brakes and bringing home is very predictable. But as mentioned before, going up the same hill seems like it's not even stretching. No idea why it's that way around, but maybe the tyres are doing more 'digging' when moving in comparison to passively sliding haha.
I 'had to find the right parking spot'. Took ages lols... anyways I was keeping the car generally on point with a bit of wiggle around the corners and after a while I smelt slight burning smell. Nothing major, just a tad when I stopped. Could that be the 'clutch' on the centre diff (whatever it's called) or handbrake? Perhaps maybe slight clutch smell, but obviously not a massive amount of power was added so cant see why that would be under stress. Did smell a touch like clutch though!?
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