Red Bull Appeal..

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Starts today.......

so, who want's to guess the outcome?

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where are you reading the transcripts from?

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Agent Orange said:

I think RB will win the moral victory as they'll be able to prove they didn't exceed 100kg/h but Ricciardo's disqualification will still stand due to them not following FIA instructions during the race.

Reading the reports, you would have to be in drugs to think this!

If half the detail is correct, red bull deserve to be thrown out.

I note no mention if them modifying the sensors yet?

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Ponk said:

This is probably a stupid question, but why are Mercedes participating in proceedings (as opposed to spectating like the other interested teams)?

Because redbull did it to them last year.....

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So, at worse, the sensor is 0.1% off?

But red bull ran up to 4.5% more fuel?

Yea, right,

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llewop said:

Also worth noting that Merc are not the only team there (at the appeal), there are several, just Merc appear to be the most vocal in questioning!

remember, this is Merc the engine builder/supplier as opposed to Merc the race team

also, other teams have sent observers, they chose not to get involved over observing.

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London424 said:

So is that it?

Sorry your appeal didn't work. Why are there no penalties (financial or other) handed out for a very very serious breach of the rules?

I agree.....

They should.be hit.with a fine for bringing the sport into disrepute.

Edited by Scuffers on Tuesday 15th April 11:24

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zac510 said:

Come again?

Spare us your ridiculous axe-grinding.

What axe?

I have no issues with riciardo, just red bull managements appalling attitude over this event as I am sure most sane people are.

Have you actually followed what they have been saying since.

Aside that, gill should sue them for publicly trying to trash their products.

Edited by Scuffers on Tuesday 15th April 12:28

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NRS said:

zac510 said:

You basically just want them punished more for daring to use the appeal process that's in the sporting regulations.

The appeal might have been somewhat futile and the way it initiated not pretty but that's not reason to punish them more. It's acting purely out of spite.

You you think it was ok for RB to basically say the sensor was crap and so on, yet it appears obvious their measurements were not calibrated, had a larger uncertainty than that of the sensor "error", seemed to change to give more power when they needed it during the race and potentially the proper sensor "failed" because of modification? I think if I was Gill I'd be looking at some kind of court action, especially if they've been discussing any other contacts at the time that might have been influenced by RB's claims.

essentially, yes.

fine for RB to appeal the stewards, that's perfectly OK and winin their rights etc..

what is not is the public rhetoric and campaigning to trash Gill's rep and the FIA's staff and procedures.

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zac510 said:

Scuffers, comments like that make your opinions sound like a braying mob rather than the well calculated argument of a court room and legal process.

OK, explain how?

let me put it this way, if I was up before a real court and I tried to prejudice the case by putting gout a flood of press releases etc, how do you think a judge would view this?

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zac510 said:

I don't have to explain how.

in other words, you can't justify your accusation....

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Walford said:

If the error is 1.5% then they should not be using them in F1

Where did you get that from?

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Interesting that the FIA have recordings of the pit intercom talk.....

They have the recording of red bull during the race saying they will argue it with the stewards....

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Seems to me to be more a case if total not being open to gill and the FIA about what's in their fuel.

Trying to think what they will have used that eats said o ring

I would assume they have already gone though this with renault on the engines fuel system, so seems somewhat odd not to have mentioned this to the fia or gill?

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Agent Orange said:

As Red Bull I'd be pretty annoyed if by mid-way through the season the Total cars still have issues and the FIA are effectively saying you were right back in Australia, at least in so far as the belief the sensor was problematic with your car, just the FIA sensor doesn't work well with your fuel - which by the way the fuel is fine as we've approved it.

In addition as Red Bull/Total I'd be lobbying hard to have the sensors upgraded to work with my perfectly legal fuel - either that or change the fuel approval to ban the substance that is causing the issue.

kind of missing the point.

FIA do not 'approve' their fuel, they have just layed down limits for XYZ on it and as long as it meets said limits, then OK.

Total would appear to be using an unusual additive, that appears to be attacking the O ring.

the obvious question is what is the additive and what material are the O rings?

I would assume Gill have used a std off the shelf fuel safe O ring, something like Nitrile-NBR or Viton-FKM etc.

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Agent Orange said:

Scuffers said:

kind of missing the point.

FIA do not 'approve' their fuel, they have just laid down limits for XYZ on it and as long as it meets said limits, then OK.

I'd disagree. The FIA have effectively approved the fuel otherwise they'd have fined Red Bull/Total for using illegal fuel.

As they haven't fined them it's quite clear it meets the said limits in the eyes of the FIA. Therefore it's "approved" for use in F1 races.

have you actually read the fuel regs?

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not really no.

where does it list exhaustively what additives can be used?

all their 'approval' means is that they are not using something banned in the regs.

for all you know, it could have something really nasty in it, but it's not banned int he regs so it's legal, does not make it a great idea though...

and in this case, it would appear to have something in it that's in-compatable with whatever O rings are used in the flow sensor.

Now, as Renault make the rest of the fuel system, they must already be aware of this potential issue and if they were, would not not think they might have mentioned it to Gill/FAI at some point before now?

I am sure Gill have used a typical fuel-safe O ring material, but without knowing what exotic additives are used, how are they to know?

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Agent Orange said:

I'm sorry but something is either approved or not-approved. Can I at least now get your agreement that the FIA have approved Total's fuel?

Article 19 goes into great detail regarding the fuel make up including stating that the fuel should be made using compounds usually found in commercial fuels and should the fuel appear to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of the regulation it will be deemed to be outside it. ie - not approved.

So I'll say it again and then give up for fear of going round in circles with you.

Total are either using illegal fuel
or
FIA fuel sensors are not fit for purpose with FIA approved fuel

..or the rule is poor. Not a first for the FIA.

Edited by Agent Orange on Tuesday 22 April 15:41

What is it about you?

It's not about the fia, fuel is formulated by total, and just because it's legal, makes no difference to the problem.

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^^^^ well said ^^^^

anybody naive enough to think they were not 100% aware of what they were doing is deluded.

(see, I don't always disagree with you!)